CAWG Transcript

Transcript Notice:
Transcriptions are machine-generated and may not have been proofread or corrected. Transcriptions are reference, search and assistive in nature only and are NOT an official transcript of this video

0:01 – Thank you for joining the commercial aviation work group meeting.
0:05 – Work group members and members of the public, please be sure to sign in on the appropriate
0:09 – sign-in sheets at the front of room.
0:11 – There will be an opportunity for public comment from 12.45 to 1.15 pm and I will alternate
0:17 – between in-person and online.
0:19 – Workgroup members, be clearly and loudly throughout the meeting so those in person and
0:23 – online can hear you.
0:25 – Hybrid meetings can come with unique challenges, so I do appreciate everyone’s cooperation and patience if any technical difficulties arise.
0:33 – Workroom members online, please keep your video on and microphone on you unless you are speaking during the meeting
0:38 – and if you have a comment or question during a meeting,
0:41 – please speak freely during
0:42 – the meaning or use the hand raised button.
0:45 – As a reminder, members of the public will be muted unless
0:48 – you were called on during public comment in which I will unmute you to speak.
0:52 – For those in person, the emergency exit is located in three places along the glass windows
0:56 – and restrooms are out the door to the right.
1:06 – Audio is on.
1:07 – Okay.
1:08 – Now I will pass it on to Evan.
1:10 – All right, welcome morning, everybody.
1:12 – I’m Evan Doerby, I am the chair.
1:15 – Want to welcome everyone here to Centralia College, which is Trans-Alta Commons.
1:20 – for our July meeting, I want to, you know, thank also our Centralia Chehalis Airport Director Brandon
1:30 – Rakes here with us at the table for hosting us today and hosting our tour. I’d like to go around
1:37 – and as we usually do kind of take attendance, everyone here in the room and then I’ll call on
1:47 – Identify themselves, so starting down here on my right.
1:51 – I’ll hand it off to the application manager for Yakima Valley Conference of Governments
1:56 – for the MPOR-TPO for The Yakmaeria, a non-voting member.
2:01 – Gary Ward, citizen representative from Eastern Washington.
2:14 – Art of Gauss, representing commercial airports and ports from a county of population of
2:18 – two million a month. All right. I’m not sure if you’re, or if I
2:22 – ‘m sure, if your bike was on, but. Okay.
2:26 – All Right. And then joining us online.
2:29 – Yeah.
2:35 – Everything acts as a citizen.
2:43 – Western Washington.
2:46 – It’s actually Ruben’s citizen
2:48 – red light.
2:50 – Stephen Polonsky representing the
2:52 – Washington State Department of
2:53 – Commerce.
2:55 – Then Brookman with the last
2:56 – Airlines.
2:59 – Look after I represent the public
3:01 – ports of Washington
3:07 – think that’s everyone
3:08 – other way.
3:08 – Can’t see you all.
3:09 – Well, not quite.
3:10 – Maria.
3:20 – for anyone else online.
3:21 – Do some selfs yet.
3:24 – Okay, environmental organizations.
3:30 – I think that’s everyone.
3:32 – So,
3:35 – turning to the
3:38 – kind of status of appointments,
3:39 – there has been no one new appointed since our April meeting.
3:43 – We have several statutory seats,
3:45 – unfilled voting seats for freight forwarding,
3:48 – trucking,
3:48 – a statewide environmental organization and citizen reps from Eastern and Western Washington.
3:53 – We also have non-voting seats open for Western and Washington Metropolitan Planning Organization and
3:58 – Western, Washington Regional Airport.
4:00 – I understand there are some pending appointments with the governor’s office, and if we hear anything about those,
4:07 – we’ll let the, you know, the whole membership know.
4:16 – And certainly anyone who’s watching the meeting, who is interested in applying, you can go to the state’s website and apply.
4:24 – Yes.
4:25 – I’m looking at an email from PSRC dated May of 2025.
4:32 – And this is from Kelly McGurdy and she said at the time that she didn’t have time to participate.
4:40 – But if we ask her, she would reach out to some other MPOs.
4:44 – around western Washington but that’s been a year ago and I don’t know that we’ve heard from her or anybody so
4:52 – Maybe we should follow up with PSRC to see if they have any ideas about
4:58 – MPO representatives from western, Washington
5:08 – Who who’s that in the best position and do you think to make that kind of an ask
5:14 – Mark
5:28 – All right, so a handful of other updates on the members of the committee you should have received a an email about
5:38 – updating your bios. We’ve had bios, those of us who’ve been on the work group since
5:43 – the beginning, have bios on a website and photos that we supplied. They are offering
5:48 – to take new photos. I guess that really only applies to those
5:51 – of those who are here in person, but I think the offer probably stands until the next meeting
5:55 – as well. If you want a new photo for the website, and then either
6:03 – On forums and writing here or by replying through the forum in the email link
6:12 – There are some questions
6:16 – For doing a new bio for yourself and the planning team would like us to answer those questions
6:21 – Kind of expand on our bios a little bit on the website
6:27 – And there was a deadline for that I think it was around a couple weeks from now
6:37 – meeting workbooks.
6:42 – A quick question on the reappointments.
6:46 – Is there a timeline which follows the same protocol as new people applying for it?
6:51 – People who are not currently on workgroup?
6:54 – There are several members whose appointments have expired,
7:00 – and our direction from the governor’s office is just to continue working.
7:08 – Okay. Meeting workbooks. We’ve been asked to respond as to whether or not we would
7:18 – like printed workbook at future meetings to compile presentations, reference materials
7:23 – and notes. There were some binders from the very first meeting that had information from
7:36 – But we could take that material, plus the new material
7:40 – and put it all in one place in print for people to have.
7:44 – I guess by show of hands clicking in the Zoom
7:47 – and then here, who would be interested in something like that?
7:55 – I would say.
7:56 – A question.
7:57 – Is that Material available online?
8:00 – Or it seems to me that we had a.
8:05 – shared folder set up by WatchDot that was kind of for that purpose, if I recall, I might
8:13 – say a lot of paper if we took advantage of that. There’s a Google shared, what I want
8:21 – to say, shared docs folder where we could put all that stuff, which that’s an option.
8:34 – And I have the material that was originally in our binder.
8:37 – Someone was very fine-print, a little bit difficult to read.
8:40 – It would be easier online.
8:42 – That’s just my personal thought about it.
8:44 – Yeah.
8:46 – About folks online, whether it was printed into binders
8:52 – or in an online accessible archive,
8:57 – that you could refer to, would that be useful?
9:09 – Hey, I’m fine with online, too.
9:13 – Okay.
9:14 – I am interested in a hard copy of the consultant’s report.
9:21 – Okay, all right.
9:23 – So it sounds like it’s a good idea, but if we can put it
9:28 – into a simple online repository and then also make printed copies
9:31 – and I want to request.
9:33 – Yeah, non-request.
9:34 – Yeah.
9:39 – Okay, so the next suggestion is that we
9:48 – Looking ahead to future operations in a group
9:54 – It’s been suggested that. We consider having subcommittees by area of interest or focus
10:01 – and I think
10:04 – Right at the moment this idea to kind of float
10:07 – and that maybe this afternoon we can have in our discussion time, we could have more of a discussion about it.
10:11 – And just because we’re out springing this on everybody right now is we kind of doing introductory remarks.
10:19 – It seems like, but I think the idea is that we all, members of the work group, all bring in different areas of interest and expertise.
10:30 – And we were appointed the seats to represent different.
10:36 – constituencies and so the idea that we could have subcommittees that then could
10:44 – think ward in depth about some of these issues and then run against report back
10:50 – to the full group could be useful pros and cons to that idea so I think we
11:05 – And we could have that more of a discussion about that later on today
11:14 – Okay, agenda overview
11:19 – We’re going to
11:22 – Recap the April meeting we’re gonna have a
11:25 – discussion from then from 10 20 to 11 15 on the capacity gap
11:31 – The consultants are gonna present on
11:36 – for the various studies that have been done about the anticipated gap in mostly passenger capacity
11:44 – Going forward as well as information about plans in Vancouver and Portland
11:51 – And then plant capacity enhancements
11:56 – I think that we know of and then talk about what’s left after we have the
12:04 – I guess the build out that’s already being planned on.
12:07 – We have a break from 1115 to 1130, and then discussion.
12:14 – So for the last couple of meetings,
12:19 – we’ve been hearing a lot from our consultant group.
12:22 – And they’ve now asked us, members of work group,
12:25 – to think about and digest and start more of a discussion
12:33 – what we’ve heard and then what
12:36 – we anticipate going in at least the annual report that we are starting to
12:41 – draft to go to the legislature this fall.
12:44 – So as we’re hearing
12:48 – the presentation this morning
12:52 – and in the break, start thinking about,
12:56 – take some notes and start to think about questions and comments and thoughts
12:59 – about everything you’ve ever heard of the last couple meetings and this
13:02 – about kind of where do we go from here.
13:05 – We got a lunch from 1215 to 1245, public comment from
13:10 – 12 45 to 115, and then continued discussion.
13:14 – We’ll set a new meeting date,
13:17 – and we have our tour of the Cheyelis
13:19 – Atrelia Airport from three to four.
13:25 – And with that, hand it over to Mark.
13:28 – All right, thank you.
13:30 – Chair, Norby.
13:39 – All right, thank you very much.
13:41 – I’m Mark Champany, we’re CNS companies,
13:42 – part of the facilitation team here
13:44 – to help support the work group.
13:47 – Have a few slides, but as the chair alluded,
13:51 – we want to have this more of a conversation,
13:55 – a generative conversation about some of
13:57 – the things we’ve heard where we are going
13:59 – and the thing that we wanna do next.
14:01 – So, just cover, I think most of you are familiar
14:06 – but for folks that haven’t.
14:08 – participated in this or if members of the public are new to the work group meetings,
14:15 – right? Just a few reminders on the mission. The group is not searching and building a new airport.
14:21 – It’s not the main mission, so it’s different than the cactors, different members.
14:26 – Really our goal is to evaluate that long-range commercial aviation and transportation needs of
14:30 – the state, including alternatives for additional capacity, right,
14:36 – maximized the existing infrastructure use that efficiently, but doing that also in consideration
14:42 – of multimodal opportunities as well. So ultimately making a set of recommendations back to the
14:48 – legislator about things that should be enhanced or supported to help those initiatives. All of
14:56 – a lot more detail, just a reminder of the Aviation Work Group website, a
15:07 – Recapped to April meeting some of the things we touched on you heard a lot from us on airport capacity
15:14 – We kind of gave an airport Capacity 101
15:16 – what that means a
15:18 – Lot of different aspects of airports. It’s not just the runways and taxways
15:22 – Not just to terminals not. Just the roadway system how those all interact how?
15:27 – Those all need to be balanced in order to process
15:30 – passengers in cargo coming through the facilities
15:33 – A lot of factors that play into that, it’s not easy by any means, right?
15:37 – So I’ll try to give all of you the baseline information of how that works, and some of
15:45 – the things that maybe we can do as we start to think of ideas to move the system forward.
15:53 – We did some unconstrained forecasts, Steve presented those, really not the first time
16:02 – with forecasts, the individual airports have their own forecast, PSRC has done some of that,
16:08 – and really there’s a lot of alignment and all of
16:10 – that and what we’re seeing for the demand, right? The demand is going to continue to come to this
16:14 – region for many reasons, for businesses and recreation, and
16:18 – all that alignment is kind of giving the consultant team as well as you that understanding that
16:29 – Some of the initial, the work group has the requirement to report to the legislature on an annual basis.
16:35 – So some of as we start to think that that’s due at the end of
16:38 – the year, so we can’t wait till the
16:40 – end the of year to thinking about that, right? So starting, we started some
16:43 – of those conversations about what that might look like.
16:48 – And then we need to continue that conversation as
16:51 – we move forward.
16:56 – I think, yeah, so that’s for later in the afternoon.
16:58 – So really, you know, what we’ve seen to this point
17:03 – is a lot of alignment with the demand profile.
17:07 – We have an understanding of the SCAs doing their SAMP,
17:12 – we’re getting that through some final environmental approvals
17:15 – with some of their capacity enhancements they’re doing.
17:19 – We’ve have pain field.
17:21 – with their master plan and their potential accommodation of additional passengers.
17:27 – So we’ve been working and coordinating to understand what those plans are
17:31 – and all of that and some of you have heard from where we have been to these different airports.
17:36 – We’ve heard them from them and the plans.
17:39 – But there’s really a lot of alignment and improvements that will help capacity in the region.
17:46 – but there’s still not enough, right,
17:47 – when we look at that demand profile,
17:49 – there is still enough to accommodate everything
17:51 – that’s coming in the next 20, 30 years.
17:55 – And there are potential intermodal opportunities,
17:59 – right that might help that.
18:01 – There’s, you know, the new airport discussion,
18:03 – those are going to take a long time to build,
18:06 – and those that are a lot farther out in future.
18:08 – So really kind of coming back and staying focused
18:10 – on the mission of this work group.
18:12 – So, what are we doing in that next, in what we’re calling the capacity gap, right?
18:17 – That timeframe of when SCA, pain field improvements are no longer enough and the time when something
18:26 – bigger beyond probably all of our lives is needed, so that’s really what
18:33 – we want to kind of get the group to focus on talking about more, as we look to either additional things.
18:40 – the workgroup wants the consultant team to look into,
18:43 – our additional things that we should know are important
18:47 – to help move some of these existing improvements
18:50 – along faster so that way we can get them online faster.
18:53 – Right? Some of that needs funding and other other
18:57 – discussions that will help do that among other things.
19:01 – So yeah, so really you know trying to set up a discussion here today around that and I think Steve might have some additional comments
19:09 – As it relates to some of this
19:12 – Yeah, I mean it seems sometimes
19:14 – In this region, you, know the discussion of a new airport has sucked a lot of the oxygen out of
19:20 – the room and
19:21 – What’s interesting is if you planned a New Airport today you wouldn’t have it for 20 to 30 years
19:28 – So the question then becomes if we have capacity constraints
19:32 – in the region beginning in low to mid 2030s,
19:36 – what do you do about it?
19:37 – And so in a way it’s important to think first
19:42 – about how do manage the capacity
19:45 – and the airports that you have now and how do you optimize capacity at the facilities
19:52 – that have and capacity for commercial service airlines, capacity
19:58 – for very critical air cargo and for general aviation.
20:03 – So if you look at all the airport and all of the infrastructure and you align those three
20:14 – You might come up with some different proposals that align
20:18 – with where some of these airports are going
20:20 – with their capacity plans, as Mark mentioned,
20:23 – both with Painfield and SEA.
20:29 – The other piece is there’s two other enabling issues
20:33 – to this that need to be considered.
20:35 – For one, the FAA is looking at the airspace system.
20:41 – that impacts all the airports in the region of the Puget Sound, right?
20:46 – That review will make a big difference about airspace capacity,
20:53 – interactions among the different airports, arrival and departure paths,
20:58 – whatever it might be.
20:59 – And so that’s one important variable that has to be aligned with this effort.
21:05 – The other is surface transportation.
21:08 – Obviously, this is a region that has some surface congestion.
21:13 – When you have congestion and delay, that then extends the time it takes to get to an airport,
21:19 – and it either makes some airports for passengers more reachable or less reach-able, depending
21:26 – upon the times it take them to go there.
21:29 – So in a way, and Washington’s always been very good at this as a state, it’s very important
21:38 – be it highway, be at transit and light rail to airports,
21:44 – be in inner city passenger rail, or be a high speed rail.
21:48 – And how did those align with the different airports
21:52 – to get both residents and visitors in and out of the airports
21:57 – and perhaps open up different considerations
22:01 – about what airports can serve what populations?
22:04 – So that’s going to be a lot of the focus the second half of this year is looking at managing
22:12 – the existing infrastructure and capacity you have to address demand, looking
22:17 – at the airport plans that are in place, be it master plans or other plans to increase
22:23 – capacity, and how those then align with both surface transportation and the FAA efforts
22:31 – on airspace.
22:33 – That sounds complex because it is.
22:37 – As Mark indicated, we have air side capacity.
22:40 – We have terminal capacity, and we
22:42 – have roadway and land side, capacity all of which
22:46 – need to be balanced if you’re going
22:48 – to have the type of service levels that you want, right?
22:52 – In a way, this should be comforting to some people who sometimes worry about the externalities
22:59 – of airports and aviation because before you start building new airports in some region
23:06 – in the state of Washington, doesn’t it make more sense to optimize the infrastructure
23:11 – investments you’ve already made and to get people in and out of those airports that you
23:16 – have most efficiently?
23:21 – optimization, I think, for the second half of 2026 in our work plan is where we’re putting
23:28 – a lot of the focus. And from what we’ve seen, all the airports in the region understand
23:34 – the need to manage and optimize that capacity.
23:38 – And they’re all open to working with each other.
23:46 – Peter, I mean, one of the things you and I have talked about is compared, let’s say,
23:50 – to a place like the Washington, D.C. airports or the Port Authority in New York and New
23:56 – Jersey, we don’t have a consolidated airport authority for the region, instead we have
24:03 – a system of different authorities represented by different constituencies, and that means
24:13 – a little bit uniquely, right?
24:15 – That’s right, though we have an advantage those don’t have
24:20 – in that if you break apart the capacity,
24:23 – the physical capacity it exists.
24:26 – We have more physical capacities,
24:28 – particularly in Western Washington than those comfortable.
24:31 – Yes.
24:31 – big cities, and the real question is, how do you talk to each other?
24:35 – How do coordinate the capacity and capacity constraints?
24:41 – What are the constraints at SCA?
24:43 – What is the strengths at Ainsfield,
24:46 – what are constraints of Boneyfield?
24:47 – Just use three examples.
24:49 – And that gets into sort of three-dimensional chess very quickly,
24:53 – because at one of them, the compassion constraint
24:56 – may be the amount of ground space available for aircraft.
24:59 – At another one, it may be the amount of road, lane, availability to access the airport,
25:05 – so on.
25:06 – So we need to combine all those and say where is the capacity, where the capacities constraints,
25:13 – and how in the philosopher-king theory, if we were in charge of all this, how would we
25:19 – move these pieces around?
25:21 – Once we figure out that, then we can go back and look as a practical matter can we accomplish
25:25 – that?
25:31 – Does that make sense to the members of the work group as a sort of focus for the second
25:38 – half of 26?
25:39 – Yeah.
25:40 – Yeah, it strikes me as one of those situations where if you were stacking up a bunch of pieces
25:44 – of Swiss cheese and you put them all together and that eventually there’s going to be one
25:49 – hole remaining and it’s kind of a best answer when you line them up.
25:54 – I just thought of that metaphor at Algae River as you are talking there about all the different
26:00 – And that kind of leads us to a solution
26:04 – Or what are a set of solutions and to continue your analogy the last couple meetings we’ve been stacking the Swiss cheese, right?
26:11 – Okay, now we now when you look the holes
26:21 – Reports, I mean Vancouver, BC, Navy Portland, maybe Bellingham
26:27 – Even in central Washington, there’s capacity over there.
26:31 – It’s just a question of how you access it rapidly.
26:35 – Because people want to get to and from the Puget Sound area mostly
26:39 – expeditiously.
26:43 – So it’s a bigger picture to me at least
26:47 – than just the puget sound.
27:03 – Yeah, she’s not muted Maria. Can you hear us? Yeah. Okay, we can hear you.
27:15 – Um, yeah, thank you, I really appreciate this discussion and reframing or at least anchoring us back to our initial discussion.
27:33 – airport, master plan, has had the approval of FAA under NEPA, and SEPA does not have
27:45 – as much influence in changing things, but rather in being able to ask more questions.
27:50 – So it’s looking like it should be part of the assumption in our discussion to say X percent
28:03 – CTAC Airport has identified the constraint demand.
28:06 – You’ll be able to meet through the 31 projects.
28:09 – And what that brings us to is really beginning to,
28:13 – hopefully the second half of this year,
28:16 – identify principles that we’re going to be using
28:18 – and the potential of the capacities that have been identified
28:22 – and recommend that to the legislature
28:25 – for the next stage of our work.
28:31 – I realize there’s a dance that we need to do, but I think that’s that’ll be a good basic assumption in our planning
28:48 – Just for clarification purposes for the members, you know the capacity is short for that the region is looking at based on current forecasts
28:55 – takes into account
28:57 – the build out of
29:00 – the SCA master plan, forget to prove, and paint fields.
29:03 – So the short fall is after those are completed.
29:09 – So, the idea, right, is to sort of stack these up.
29:12 – We have today’s capacity.
29:14 – We then the capacity plans that we know are on the books.
29:18 – And we may actually learn.
29:20 – perhaps about some more as we go along, and then we can look at the effects of what would,
29:25 – what can the CAG say about the possibility of optimizing capacity by perhaps making changes or
29:33 – working and coordinating with the airport operators to say, how could we move things around to even
29:39 – get that little extra bump up there? Then once all that’s done, we’ll have a sense, let’s just
29:47 – capacity than is tapped in 2036 or whatever, we can then look at what the effects economically.
29:55 – that lid on capacity will be and what effects it will have on passengers and
30:01 – service levels. We know once you reach capacity you’re going to have more
30:05 – delays, you’ll have a more congestion. That has an economic cost and then for
30:11 – the business and the people that rely on aviation we can actually value that and
30:17 – that’s what in part were charged to go back to the legislature with
30:21 – to provide that estimate of what the value of delay
30:25 – and congestion will be in the cost economically
30:28 – that that will have to the state.
30:30 – But our point all along has been,
30:32 – let’s play the hand first, right?
30:35 – Where we are today, what capacity is coming in,
30:38 – and then what we can squeeze out of the system
30:42 – by better using the infrastructure
30:44 – that has being made by public investments,
30:46 – and also talking with the airlines about
30:49 – what their network strategies might be, how these align or don’t with them, and they can let us know
30:56 – what costs or benefits these strategies could have to them.
31:02 – Well, I think it’s also important to include community in that assessment,
31:06 – and that is where environment and health needs to be included in this big picture.
31:12 – I mean, there’s a polarity that’s going on. We have the HEAL Act at the state level.
31:18 – We have communities that are actually experiencing extreme heat demands and all of the greenhouse gases
31:25 – So we have to integrate that
31:27 – Otherwise, we’re not going to come up with any progressive recommendations
31:32 – We’re just gonna wind up doing the same old same. Oh, and that’s that. That’s not what we were about
31:37 – We need to do something better
31:39 – No, wait
31:41 – Certainly agree with you and one of the reasons for looking at the multi-modal strategies is to better manage and optimize the system and certainly
31:52 – Getting a read from communities about do they want light rail to Better connect that airport or do They want?
32:00 – You know additional roadway capacity to open up those airports or would they like new airports, right? It’s
32:08 – all of those have different costs and benefits to them and we hope that both members of the
32:15 – KAG and the greater public provide input about that. We need to distinguish between harder
32:24 – it’s always an afterthought it has to be part of a criteria
32:29 – they’re not always doing after thought because that that is not the message we want to give
32:36 – We want to give a message that’s comprehensive, that includes their health and well-being.
32:41 – Yes, yes, I was beginning to say is that we need to make sure we don’t just focus on the hard constraints,
32:49 – the infrastructure constraints. We need equally to look at the soft constraints
32:54 – and the sorts of things you’re talking about,
32:56 – environmental constraints are absolutely critical,
32:58 – soft constraint, but there are other critical
33:00 – soft constraints as well, including the public’s
33:04 – willingness to travel to Eastern Washington,
33:06 – the travel time that the Public will accept,
33:10 – the impact of additional travel times
33:13 – to go to different airports,
33:14 – and those are much more difficult to assess,
33:16 – but they’re really important, because if you come out
33:19 – from the first analysis and say, great,
33:22 – we have plenty of runway.
33:24 – but nobody’s going to use it, that doesn’t get you very far.
33:26 – And so I think Maria’s point is very well taken,
33:29 – that you need to make sure that once you have
33:31 – an assessment of what your physical capacity
33:33 – is what you’re physical facilities are,
33:35 – they need you to layer on top of that the other constraints.
33:41 – Invaluable about what we’re saying
33:44 – is that we are in a way presenting new information
33:48 – and what is normative information.
33:50 – what’s normative in Europe in terms of travel time and travel comfort.
33:54 – So we have an obligation to also say this is what is happening in the global picture,
34:00 – not just the local. Otherwise, we’re going to get the same old answers.
34:04 – Oh, my current trip is 45 minutes. I don’t want it to be an hour and a half.
34:11 – I mean, this part of the bigger Washington initiatives.
34:18 – in terms of how we can keep.
34:19 – And there’s a lot of challenges
34:21 – to our Washingtonians right now.
34:24 – So let’s stick the high road on it.
34:36 – Sorry, oh, the screen just got reorganized on me here.
34:40 – All right, I’m Mr. Walensky, see you.
34:45 – environmental justice I think that this is why a programmatic environmental
34:52 – impact statement approach was placed on the table at the last meeting and the
34:57 – committee may want to review or hear from the Department of Ecology which has
35:03 – PEIS experience or other implementers perhaps unless it falls to the
35:10 – It’s not clear to me how that recommendation goes or any recommendations go forward.
35:17 – It is also not entirely clear whether the consultants intend to recommend specific improvements
35:24 – at specific airports or to recommended sustainable processes for the state to move forward in
35:31 – the next 20 years to address aviation needs.
35:38 – the consultant team itself would not make recommendations.
35:42 – I think what we would inventory alternatives
35:46 – to achieve the ends that the state had in enabling statute
35:51 – and then it would be up to the members of the CAG
35:55 – working with the State to take it from there
35:58 – and make some recommendations,
36:00 – but we really view our job as doing the research.
36:03 – doing the inventories, making sure all these efforts are aligned with some system thinking,
36:09 – benchmarking this potentially against regions that are similar, both in the U.S. and otherwise,
36:16 – and providing that list of alternatives to you all so that you can then decide what you
36:22 – want to do with them.
36:24 – But we’re not the voting members or the actors, we are acting to facilitate and support you
36:37 – And as any questions or comments right now,
36:40 – I don’t see hands raised, but.
37:00 – So we have on here on the agenda,
37:01 – it’s discussion of the capacity gap,
37:03 – but there’s more under there.
37:06 – It’s really, you know, talking just about, like, we’ve reviewed those.
37:11 – The PSRC reports, the state reports.
37:14 – We did look into some YBR and PDX impacts that C could talk to if needed, and then obviously
37:22 – we have identified SCA and the pain field improvements.
37:26 – So it’s, really the basis of some of the work that’s been done to this point, right,
37:31 – that the layers of Swiss cheese will keep using that analogy right now.
37:36 – But you know we can talk about that more or I’m happy to address the Vancouver and Portland
37:44 – Pieces Christina if I could share my screen and I can
37:50 – Okay, thank you
37:59 – Help me I don’t hear I’ll crumb it so
38:07 – Yeah, yeah, well, yep, is it up starting to?
38:14 – There it is.
38:20 – Okay.
38:21 – Presentation moves.
38:22 – All right.
38:23 – I need to grab that one.
38:25 – Just click behind the screen.
38:27 – Oh, you got a minute in mind.
38:30 – Oh.
38:31 – Okay, here.
38:45 – Yeah
38:47 – All right, there we go
38:51 – So
38:52 – We did take a good look at
38:55 – Portland, Seattle
38:57 – Bellingham some of the other Washington airports as ways of addressing
39:03 – Capacity gaps in the Puget Sound Regional Council area
39:07 – if you look
39:08 – at the chart this shows the catchment area of a 90-minute drive time between
39:14 – Vancouver at the top, Bellingham, Seattle and Portland, and what you can see, unfortunately
39:22 – from a drive time standpoint, they almost segment perfectly from population centers,
39:30 – which means if you are to travel to Portland or Vancouver from the core area of the Seattle
39:36 – region, you’re going to be going further than 90-minute drivetime.
39:44 – pretty far. It’s interesting in Washington, the two airports that have the greatest overlap
39:49 – are Pasco and Tricities in Spokane, which is great for them. They have alternative airports,
39:57 – but for Western Washington it’s not really in play. Bellingham itself is an option for people
40:05 – living Northern Washington but today they’re leaking a lot of travel, a lots of flights to Vancouver.
40:13 – and with some of the border issues that have become heightened
40:17 – in the last year or so, we’re seeing less southbound travelers
40:21 – to Bellingham than we used to to avoid the taxes
40:24 – in a Canadian aviation system.
40:27 – So it’s pretty segmented.
40:29 – And now what’s interesting is if you took Vancouver, Seattle
40:33 – and Portland and you did put north south high speed rail on it
40:40 – rail line that traveled at a higher speed, that would then open up the catchment area
40:47 – to many more travelers going north or southbound, making all the airports a little bit more
40:52 – in play. But when we think about that, the issue is both Portland and Vancouver themselves
41:03 – will add passengers. So it is not as though 10, 15 years from now, there’s going to
41:10 – be scores of available capacity available at those two airports.
41:15 – So, you know, we’ve looked at Portland itself is growing now. They’re up to 20
41:23 – million or so in plainments. There’s still recovering a little bit from COVID as
41:31 – A lot of the West Coast airports including Seattle to some degree Vancouver and Portland
41:37 – have been hurt by the decline of international travel especially to Asia but they’re starting
41:44 – to recover from that and here you can see YVR Vancouver which is now at record levels
41:52 – again at about 27 million passengers or 13 and a half million in planements and they
42:00 – given the airline service there and alternative to Seattle in the way that Portland maybe
42:06 – with Alaska Airlines has been talked a little bit about it.
42:10 – Moses Lake and using network strategies might be in play, Vancouver, there’s very little
42:16 – overlap in airline services between those.
42:20 – And you can see that in next till 2055, you see Portland’s going to add about 19.5 million
42:29 – in claimants in Vancouver, about 25 million for their demand.
42:35 – So, the practical reality is between Vancouver and Portland
42:40 – and including Seattle, you have a lot of regions
42:43 – that are going to need additional capacity
42:46 – to meet their own economic growth
42:48 – and their on economic demands.
42:50 – Stated another way, they’re not really relievers
42:54 – for Seattle per se, even if you were to introduce North South high-speed rail,
43:00 – they would then face their own capacity shortfalls going forward.
43:06 – So I don’t know, Mr. Chairman, if that’s good news, or what new, but…
43:11 – I understand we need to look beyond Vancouver and Portland,
43:18 – because that is not going to provide sufficient relief.
43:22 – not excess capacity to provide relief for this region.
43:25 – Yes. Now, you could have, if you were to put in, let’s say, north-south high-speed rail,
43:33 – you can offer the possibility of reducing some short-haul flying that connects those
43:39 – three cities and maybe even the last segment of a flight, but that’s not an appreciable
43:47 – on the overall mismatch between capacity and demand between now and 2055
43:53 – So if Gary if I get where you’re going
43:57 – Eastern Washington in some respects could be an answer there if you had the surface
44:05 – Transportation movement to better connect those regions
44:09 – I mean whether that be Moses Lake or the Tri-Sities or Yakima yes
44:15 – but
44:16 – I think as you suggested, the key to that is high-speed surface transportation, and that
44:24 – comes at a cost.
44:26 – But they have that in Europe, I mean, nobody over there seems to be afraid of digging a
44:32 – tunnel, that’s what it would take if we were to take advantage of the capacity in eastern
44:38 – Washington, in my opinion.
44:46 – As opposed, maybe to you all, we understand the state might have to make those types of investments at some point in time.
44:56 – But return to what we indicated at the beginning, inside our window of when that capacity would go online.
45:04 – We are going to face constraints.
45:06 – So, what can we do to help alleviate and address some of those constraints in the meantime?
45:12 – And that’s why we really focus more on management and optimization than we did on high-speed
45:18 – rail or a new airport site.
45:21 – And I think we, to put a little bit of a damper on the conversation, we have to be careful
45:29 – about making analogies to Europe.
45:35 – And we have to be practical about the realities in America.
45:38 – We see, for example, the speaking sarcastically
45:45 – success of California high speed rail.
45:49 – It has been extraordinarily difficult.
45:52 – And, we’ve not been able to achieve in
45:54 – America some of the things, like you say, tunneling, that are just
45:57 – routine in Europe, or high-speed rail routine
46:00 – in the Europe or transfer between rail and air mode routine.
46:05 – It’s not here.
46:06 – So we have to be very careful that we
46:08 – don’t engage too much in, if only, thinking,
46:14 – because we accept who we are.
46:18 – I agree with Peter’s comment.
46:21 – Yes, we want to look at the technology coming out of Europe.
46:26 – East of the Mississippi and Europe are more apples to apples because your major
46:33 – metropolitan cities are closer together, you have more opportunities for
46:36 – infrastructure. My question would be emerging regions similar to the western
46:44 – states whether that’s Southeast Asia, other areas where you
46:49 – have greater distances between population centers.
46:52 – greater need for surface transportation improvements between those areas, maybe we just need to
47:00 – shift our focus away from the good old old country and start looking at what is being
47:07 – done, especially in these emerging markets in other areas. Even Australia probably would
47:12 – be an opportunity because it’s a similar geographic or just to oranges I think to the
47:19 – western states.
47:22 – Australia is both a good and bad example. It took them 30 years to plan a second
47:28 – airport or replacement airport for Sydney. Their experience on things like
47:32 – Rio and ABH is pretty similar to the United States and so you know we have to
47:37 – we guess we should look at what’s going on elsewhere but we need to look
47:41 – at that through a screen of what is acceptable behavior what it’s acceptable
47:46 – or what has anticipated behavior by the consumer in the in United
47:54 – Steve, could you go back to the slide that showed the 90-minute drive times?
47:58 – Yes.
47:59 – And while you’re doing that, one of the things that I want, I would like to see this group
48:07 – consider for our recommendations is that the state do some solid multimodal planning for
48:21 – all of these kinds of things, because when we show the 90-minute drive times and the
48:33 – lack of overlap between SEA, airport, and PDX, at the same time that those airports
48:41 – are growing, traffic on I-5 is growing too, that’s going to change those drive
48:49 – a different shape. And people’s tolerance for, I mean, this is 90-minute drive time,
48:56 – I assume, Steve, under optimal conditions, right? Yeah. Yeah,
48:59 – Do you have optimal condition or an average, which those of us who drive on I-5 through
49:05 – the Seattle area? Right, and so, because I…
49:10 – I already know, and again, this is not from studies.
49:13 – This is just from my talking to people that a lot of people
49:17 – that live in the Olympia area or south,
49:22 – but north of, you know still in that purple area,
49:25 – are already driving to PDX
49:27 – because it’s a more reliable drive time.
49:30 – And so, so I want to factor that in with the same kind of
49:34 – studies that Wash Dots doing on I-5 capacity.
49:38 – and, you know, kind of put those together.
49:42 – That’s why something like light rail to pain field
49:45 – would be a game changer in a way.
49:48 – Because even though it might be lengthier than, let’s say,
49:51 – a European equivalent of high speed rail,
49:54 – it’s going to be much more reliable.
49:56 – And it is going get people there.
49:58 – And the real trick with those things
50:00 – always is to try to get them door to door.
50:03 – So you’re not getting off a light
50:05 – rail and then having to on a shuttle.
50:07 – to then get to where you want to go.
50:09 – I mean, in Europe and places like Amsterdam, you arrive.
50:13 – You go down the escalator from baggage
50:15 – to the high speed rail.
50:17 – You then take that to city center.
50:19 – And unfortunately, even on the northeast,
50:23 – we don’t have that integration between rail and airports
50:27 – that they have in many of the cities of, the old country.
50:32 – Yes.
50:40 – probably Spokane, we generally use the 90-minute drive time, but I think when you’re looking at
50:46 – large hubs it’s a little bit further than that. I know for a fact our biggest leakage of passengers
50:55 – out of the Tri-Cities to Seattle is the Yakima Valley. So you are significantly outside that 90
51:10 – I don’t know if we want to use a larger map and see what that looks like or if it even matters,
51:15 – but for us, our biggest leakage is to see tech. Most of our passengers that do not fly the
51:21 – tricities in that orange area go to Seattle. So we’re also seeing the exact contrary trend.
51:31 – And particularly all over the United States we are seeing a growth of small secondary airports.
51:37 – because of the uncertainty that Han was talking about,
51:40 – I could get to CTAC in 90 minutes, maybe.
51:44 – But I absolutely know I can get
51:46 – to tri-cities in 120 minutes.
51:48 – So I’m gonna go to Tri-Cities.
51:50 – And that’s happening in the larger urban areas.
51:53 – It used to be you have to have the big airport,
51:55 – the O’Hare’s or the world, the LAX’s of world.
51:59 – And that’s becoming, the new trend is the pain field model
52:04 – is becoming more and more common, where folks have a choice
52:07 – of hypothetically faster to the bigger airport,
52:11 – but guaranteed faster, to a smaller airport.
52:15 – And so the trend of people, for example,
52:19 – I talked about this frequently, Santa Barbara, California,
52:23 – a very small airport for a couple of years,
52:26 – had an advertising campaign. We are Los Angeles’s international airport. Well, they have no
52:31 – international traffic at all. However, you can park free. You can get on a plane easily
52:37 – instead of harbor, fly to LAX, and then get onto your plane to Australia. And their traffic
52:41 – went through the roof. So that kind of marketing effort, particularly when you are essentially
52:51 – From one perspective, but it doesn’t address the airfield capacity or the airport capacity at the hub to which you’re going.
52:57 – It only affects the road transportation.
52:59 – So, you know, that’s where all these pieces fit together.
53:02 – And in Los Angeles, obviously road access is the absolute key constraint for most of the airports.
53:15 – Do you have the profile of the individuals that are are leaking over to Seattle? Do
53:20 – you know if it’s uh people that aren’t planning on traveling internationally or anything like
53:25 – that or just generally you’re losing people up there? That’s our leakage comes out.
53:33 – Majority of it is the Yakima Valley going to seattle. I don’t know who what why.
53:46 – I can tell you, I’m one of the leaks, period.
53:50 – We live in Yakimov and there’s five buses a day between Yakima and SeaTac.
53:58 – It’s very convenient to get on the bus with over at Sea-TAC.
54:02 – So, that’s what happens.
54:06 – We don’t drive over here because then you’ve got to pay $25 a date of park or something.
54:11 – So you just take the Bus directly to Sea TAC and it works fine.
54:14 – Or fly over on Alaska. That’s another option
54:29 – Following up on some of the discussion about the the load on the roads and I-5 and so on is there already an existing study regarding the increase in road road travel?
54:42 – projection to 2050 given the population growth, so that we have that information
54:47 – while we’re assessing the rest of the planning.
54:53 – I’m sure there is and we can get that and fold it in.
54:58 – There’s an I-5 master plan that’s underway right now and I’d be happy to put you
55:04 – guys in touch with them.
55:09 – You all mentioned it, FAA airspace system review that’s going on.
55:14 – Do we know when that is going to be finished and kind of an idea of what it might say?
55:19 – I mean, is that one of those, using new technologies to try and, you know, with GPS?
55:26 – Yeah, exactly, to trying to put more airplanes into the same sky.
55:35 – The FAA is not particularly transparent about the planning processes.
55:39 – I think that’s probably generous, but no, we don’t.
55:46 – It’s an airspace with challenges, and with the growth,
55:51 – it’s just inevitable that the FAA will have to go in
55:54 – and look at it, as well as some of the interactions
55:57 – that happen in the airspace under certain weather
56:01 – patterns and also the interaction
56:02 – between Boeing Field and Seattle,
56:07 – figure that out and optimize the airspace era.
56:09 – If I don’t know if, do you guys have any more information
56:13 – on when that starts, what the involvement is
56:15 – and where it’s going?
56:16 – No, we don’ t want to stop it.
56:20 – I agree with Peter said about three-dimensional shots.
56:23 – I appreciate that because the FAA is studying to make more
56:26 – efficient routes that, nonetheless, you will get the aircraft
56:30 – on the ground sooner, but then if they can actually get more
56:36 – more efficiently to an airport that is at capacity, then what?
56:42 – It’s cool, right?
56:44 – Yeah, I mean, it can be wrong.
56:46 – I think it saves miles.
56:48 – It saves fuel and saves emissions.
56:50 – But then on the lower level of the chessboard,
56:54 – then, you know, the airport has to be able to accept those aircraft
56:58 – and then of course the ground transportation has
57:01 – to take care of those people.
57:05 – And ultimately it boils down to runway capacity.
57:08 – I mean, you could move these things around
57:09 – to make more noise efficient and fuel efficient,
57:14 – that kind of stuff, but your runway only
57:16 – can accept so many per hour, so may operations per-hour.
57:20 – But I think that sets up a great analogy
57:23 – that the airspace by the FAA is a system and it interacts.
57:29 – Right now, the airports in Western Washington
57:34 – making decisions right and I think some of the things that could be considered as we move forward and as
57:40 – We continue to look at things is how do how we break the state has a great system plan?
57:45 – But it’s for the entire state and it just builds up what the individual airports are doing
57:49 – But are there things within that system of Western Washington Airport say could?
57:54 – Be optimized to then take advantage of what? The FA is doing with airspace, but
58:00 – You know, Steve talked about like Boeing field has restrictions on departures when in a certain
58:06 – flow at SCA, even Renton has some in poor weather conditions, has
58:10 – some restrictions or impacts Boeing Field. So there’s a lot of interactions there, right?
58:15 – So that’s at the airspace level. But again, if there is more chests or things that we can
58:20 – consider on the ground among the airport system and marry those two things together,
58:30 – Washington International Association Northwest triple-A and triple a I think maybe one of the things that we could I realize
58:38 – This is a this is
58:39 – a state
58:41 – But in our master planning for example, you know, we are taught to look at our our own airports and
58:49 – the
58:50 – Money that the FAA releases for us for our airport master plans is essentially just just thank you
58:58 – blinders. Yes, just for us to think about ourselves. Now, because we have the
59:02 – relationship, we do call each other up and things like that. And so we try to
59:05 – make that part of the master plan. But trying to make it as a system, I think
59:08 – maybe that’s something that that we as the group could encourage the state to
59:14 – encourage because the State is here over the next 60 days. We’re putting all of
59:18 – our plans together for for next year’s spending and
59:20 – things. Like that is that, can Washington State not that
59:24 – we’re in a good spot with the FAA right now to give us some revenue issues? But
59:27 – For those of us who are trying very hard to make everything work is that maybe there’s
59:33 – an opportunity for us as part of our master plan going forward if the FAA would allow us
59:37 – to scope and we have a small one coming up and I’m happy to that ask of them is to say
59:44 – hey, can we a little piece, a few dollars, we send the consultants down that path a
59:55 – as part of the system, you know, can we have a chapter on that?
1:00:00 – Can we a page on it?
1:00:01 – Can you put some effort into that to talk about where we fit in the puzzle,
1:00:04 – you and provide solutions or work with other airports?
1:00:10 – Because normally, if I’m talking about my master point, I can’t talk
1:00:13 – about other reports, it’s not what it is about, other than these are the nearest
1:00:17 – two airports, so.
1:00:18 – I think there are two pieces of these.
1:00:24 – blinders on a limited airport. The other piece is money that is you are not supposed to look at
1:00:30 – whether you could spend your money at another airport or another Airport to spend their money
1:00:35 – at your airport because it’s good for your master plan. Both of those are really important
1:00:39 – and that’s not something that a system plan generally looks at at a statewide basis. They say,
1:00:44 – okay, what’s going on? Not can we rob from Peter to pay Paul, which may in fact be a prudent thing
1:00:54 – if your master plan says here’s the problem and another master
1:00:58 – plan over there says I’ve got extra one or another of the criteria.
1:01:02 – The psychology of that thing, I mean one of
1:01:06 – the things I appreciate you about being an American is that
1:01:10 – there are schools of thought and one is if we keep adding
1:01:14 – people who want a piece of pie you cut the pie smaller and smaller
1:01:18 – and everyone gets less and gets grumpy but here in the United States we can
1:01:23 – That’s, I guess what I’m saying is I am not looking at trying to fitter away money, but
1:01:29 – maybe there’s a chance to bring a second pie in here, and then, because the FAA cares about
1:01:33 – capacity too, it’s just kind of from the back to the front, so I think we’re trying
1:01:37 – to get to this same place.
1:01:38 – And there are some new people rolling into the FAA in different positions that are finally
1:01:43 – going from temporary or temporarily assigned to actually permanent positions now in some
1:01:50 – people, I really do have that mindset. So I think we’re moving in the right direction.
1:01:54 – We just need to ask for it. If you don’t ask, you won’t get it, so.
1:01:59 – Yeah, let’s I I
1:02:01 – think the problem in western Washington, the prominent northeast,
1:02:06 – the prom in many congested areas of the United States is we can’t build our way out of a
1:02:17 – Right? So we built, we have more public airports in any country in the world, by far, right?
1:02:23 – So, We just kept building airports. We kept adding highway lane miles.
1:02:27 – We added transit.
1:02:29 – We had it rail.
1:02:30 – But all those were done from individual modal agencies in a disjointed, unconnected way.
1:02:38 – And we sort of said, well, when one node of the network, it’s bad,
1:02:41 – we’re just built some more.
1:02:46 – you can’t build much anymore.
1:02:48 – So it then becomes the necessity,
1:02:51 – becomes to operate it like a quasi-system,
1:02:54 – even if the same actor isn’t putting
1:02:56 – all the individual modes together.
1:02:59 – And so what we’ve really detailed during this year
1:03:02 – is we started out looking at demand in aviation
1:03:06 – and said there’s not going to be enough
1:03:08 – and we can build within the period of this study.
1:03:12 – address the problem. So the only way then to address it is through thinking like
1:03:18 – a system and coordinating among the actors. Not just the airports but with
1:03:23 – the surface agencies with light rail with others to make the most out of the
1:03:28 – infrastructure that we have. Because if we don’t what will happen in the mid 2030s
1:03:38 – and they’ll tell the airport that you’re now under slot controls and people like Ben from Alaska
1:03:46 – and the community won’t be able to add those new flights anymore. There’ll be a lid put on those
1:03:52 – flights and The locus of decision-making will move from Seattle to Washington DC.
1:04:01 – So Washington State will lose its ability to set its own goals and address its air service development.
1:04:07 – And it will be shifted inside the beltway of Washington.
1:04:10 – Nobody here wants that.
1:04:12 – You want to retain control.
1:04:14 – And so what we’re really talking about is what are those measures to postpone that date as long as possible
1:04:21 – and make the system work together better.
1:04:33 – to that broader vision of trying to retain local control.
1:04:37 – The question from my thinking is,
1:04:40 – at what point can we as a group,
1:04:44 – can you as consultants start articulating
1:04:48 – different logic other than just meeting the demand?
1:04:52 – So logic such as what’s regional, what is international,
1:04:57 – how do you integrate that with the fact
1:05:03 – Airline companies that are the initiators of these routes
1:05:07 – So I’m just curious how that approach can be integrated into what we’re doing
1:05:25 – Well, I I don’t think it’s I
1:05:28 – don t think its
1:05:29 – the role of the consultants anyway to talk about what elements of
1:05:34 – the aviation system should be prioritized in the age of limits.
1:05:38 – Again, I would turn that back to the work group and say,
1:05:43 – if there are limits, what need to be the priorities?
1:05:47 – Obviously, you know,
1:05:50 – you can take some things and
1:05:51 – say we don’t need 17 connections to San Diego every day.
1:05:55 – We’d rather have a new flight to Asia.
1:05:59 – you know, for the value to the community, the economy, everything else.
1:06:03 – We all get that.
1:06:05 – But those decisions, it’s a market-based aviation system, and the airlines working in conjunction
1:06:12 – with the airports will decide what capacity they have, where can they make money,
1:06:18 – and what is good for community in that regard.
1:06:27 – for managing and optimizing the demand to the work group.
1:06:30 – That leads well into my question.
1:06:32 – So assume we have a chapter in our annual report that
1:06:36 – is managing the Puget Sound airport capacity as a system.
1:06:45 – And we’re telling a legislature, here’s
1:06:48 – what you should do in legislation.
1:06:52 – What does that look like?
1:06:57 – Based on either other airports manages systems or based on conversations that you know all have been having with the different airports
1:07:05 – You know
1:07:07 – ABCD what needs to either change in state law or be funded or being facilitated to
1:07:14 – That the legislature can turn around and enact
1:07:17 – Well, I think we can look over the last year we’ve done or six months we done a lot
1:07:22 – we’ve looked at what demand is coming, we have updated forecasts that otherwise from
1:07:27 – the other players were still a bit dated. We’ve sort of reaffirmed the fact that we’re
1:07:34 – going to have those capacity limits.
1:07:37 – We’re telling the legislature, which is just empirical, that the region will be out of
1:07:48 – We’re trying to make the most of the infrastructure that we have through management and optimization.
1:07:55 – We can inventory some recommendations for the role of airports and surface transportation
1:08:01 – to you all, which you then can make specific recommendations to the legislature.
1:08:08 – And then, you know, we’ll, so we’ve done pretty well with that.
1:08:16 – solutions, making sure we know what CTAC is doing, what pain fields doing what Boeing
1:08:22 – fields are doing and providing sort of revised estimates about the ability to meet demand.
1:08:30 – And understanding there’s no firm figure on that, you know, we’ve seen even since we
1:08:35 – You know, the price of oil go up, go back down, now going up maybe a little bit again.
1:08:42 – The system’s very dynamic, but infrastructure’s fixed and our capital assets.
1:08:47 – And so we’re operating a very Dynamic Industry and a Very Fixed Set of Infrastructures.
1:08:55 – And how do we sort of, you know we explain that to the legislature, they put certain
1:09:00 – in the enabling statute about what we should look at,
1:09:04 – what what shouldn’t look
1:09:05 – at we’re sort of abiding by that.
1:09:07 – And if we think there’s something maybe they say we shouldn
1:09:10 – t that we say you might want to look
1:09:12 – at this we’ll give that to you and let you say it to them.
1:09:14 – Steve, I would give two very concrete answers
1:09:19 – to your question along the same line.
1:09:21 – One, both authorized and mandate cooperation amongst the
1:09:27 – transportation providers.
1:09:30 – the road systems and the light rail system.
1:09:34 – Not just authorized mandated.
1:09:37 – Number two, here’s the hard part to save legislature.
1:09:40 – Pay for it.
1:09:41 – That’s what I want to make it, please, talk about it
1:09:44 – I’m going to go back and I think after I look at Gary
1:09:46 – or Alan was sort of talking about what’s going on in Europe.
1:09:49 – One of our challenges, in europe,
1:09:52 – most transportation is funded at the national level.
1:09:56 – It used to be
1:09:57 – that airport infrastructure was funded at the national level, less so today.
1:10:03 – Some of it is, but a lot of its not.
1:10:06 – And inter-airport cooperation, back to Rich’s point, is not funded whatsoever.
1:10:13 – And so if the state were to say, again, I’ll just be sort of hypothetical here,
1:10:18 – here’s a pool of money for Rich to spend to make sure that Rich
1:10:28 – not study it, but coordinate it. That’s a big deal.
1:10:32 – And optimize it? Yes. And optimization. Thank you.
1:10:36 – I’m going first.
1:10:40 – I have looking up here in hands right here.
1:10:44 – I do.
1:10:48 – Well, I want the state to give away, buddy.
1:10:54 – Peter’s said in a couple different ways that,
1:10:57 – and I wanna just lay the groundwork for people
1:11:00 – that aren’t aware of how airport management works,
1:11:05 – FAA regulates how airports can spend their money.
1:11:09 – And Peter just said that.
1:11:10 – The FAA does not allow airports to spend
1:11:14 – their own money on system stuff.
1:11:17 – But in the last three, in last day,
1:11:18 – are we seeing some of that?
1:11:20 – Yes, yes.
1:11:21 – FAA, as part of that, also regulates how the state spends the aviation fuel tax revenue
1:11:30 – that the State gets.
1:11:32 – And right now, the City of Washington is in kind of hot water with the FAA because FAA
1:11:38 – is not clear that this state is spending the Aviation Fuel Tax Revenue on the Aviation
1:11:44 – System.
1:11:49 – to tell the legislature what we really need is a regional aviation system plan that unlike
1:11:58 – a state aviation systems plan makes budget recommendations and the state also wants to
1:12:05 – fund that, what you just said.
1:12:07 – What you said, take out the word plan, okay, a plan is the great thing, the regional system
1:12:18 – to trade money within a system.
1:12:22 – Port Authority of New York trades money
1:12:24 – within the system, okay?
1:12:26 – If, going back to the state legislature,
1:12:28 – your question, Evan, if the State legislature says,
1:12:30 – we demand that the top, I’ll make it up,
1:12:33 – 10 airports in the States, become a System,
1:12:38 – now it has opened up an opportunity,
1:12:41 – it doesn’t exist today.
1:12:43 – Now, our, it’s gonna be very,
1:12:45 – very concerned about that, and I don’t blame him.
1:12:47 – But he also has some opportunities,
1:12:49 – and he not only does SCA have more money
1:12:52 – than most of the other airports.
1:12:54 – It also more needs than the most other
1:12:55 – airports and it has more capacity constraints
1:12:57 – than mostly other airport.
1:12:59 – But my point being that we can have that conversation
1:13:02 – if the state directs us to have
1:13:05 – that conversations that talks about how much
1:13:08 – it’s gonna cost us optimize.
1:13:10 – Or the potential benefits of doing so.
1:13:12 – The benefits are doing something that’s exactly right.
1:13:14 – But I don’t want it to get lost that there’s a midpoint
1:13:19 – Which I think is that the state can spend money on a system without having those constraints between
1:13:27 – Which airport it’s going to
1:13:32 – It’s about 20 million a year
1:13:37 – So that’s almost like real money
1:13:41 – That’s
1:13:44 – Okay, well, but and imagine if we said
1:13:49 – The group said to manage and optimize the infrastructure we have we recommend these five
1:13:56 – Enabling projects and they could be airport projects or they can be surface transportation projects
1:14:02 – And you go back to the state and you say look we want you to look at this multi motley
1:14:07 – Not just for the airports but for enabling infrastructure that makes the airport’s work better
1:14:13 – How would we do that, right? I think that’s that is a very practical recommendation and it gets the sleeves rolled up and
1:14:22 – You know appreciates the coordination among those different entities
1:14:29 – Couple couple things right watching the time on the agenda
1:14:33 – Maybe we keep going till 11 30 and then we’ll shift the brakes a little bit. This is good. There’s a great discussion
1:14:38 – I don’t want to stop it. So let’s go to the let go of the folks
1:14:41 – And then maybe we’ll consider the break.
1:14:43 – Yeah, yeah.
1:14:44 – Yeah.
1:14:45 – Ben.
1:14:46 – Thank you.
1:14:47 – I know this is probably the sale at this point, but I wanted to make two points.
1:14:52 – One.
1:14:53 – Well, it is true that airlines are the ultimate determiners of where the capacity is allocated.
1:14:58 – It is ultimately the market and the data that is that we have on the with passenger demand that actually determine where we fly.
1:15:07 – So it’s,
1:15:10 – to the point that was made earlier, it is truly a market system and the visibility that we have
1:15:14 – into how travelers are going and where they’re going, whether there’s non-stop service or not,
1:15:20 – is the thing that actually causes airlines to determine where
1:15:24 – they put the capacity. So it’s not so much that airlines are just putting capacity wherever they
1:15:28 – want. We are ultimately following the market trends. And the second thing I would say, and
1:15:33 – You know, determining, you know how many flights a day do we need in San Diego versus international
1:15:37 – route. I mean, there’s no legal right for anyone to determine or discriminate where capacity is
1:15:45 – ultimately allocated. That would be a violation of FAA grantorances and cause a whole bunch of
1:15:50 – other issues. So I would just caution everyone that framing it in picking winners and losers
1:15:57 – from a route perspective is not something that anyone has legal authority to do.
1:16:03 – And I would like to spend more and more facts, comment about slots.
1:16:08 – If you have to get slots, neither ban nor the marketplace is going to decide that.
1:16:13 – It’s going be decided, decided by the Department of Transportation in Washington.
1:16:18 – And, and I think I can speak for ban in saying the last day I wanted to not find that good.
1:16:22 – And then I could speak to the consumers and saying that’s not good, all right.
1:16:32 – Learning from this discussion is that the idea of developing different logic concepts
1:16:41 – in terms of, as an example, regional airport versus international really is a new request
1:16:47 – to the legislature to ask of that so that we can look at this in creative ways, and
1:17:01 – And therefore, we are looking at this as an opportunity for our governments to lead,
1:17:08 – for legislators to leave, of course, informed by our communities.
1:17:13 – So thank you for helping me get that light bulb moment.
1:17:20 – Great, thank it.
1:17:24 – So have you, yeah, it’s been a great discussion.
1:17:29 – We want to keep this going right, but we are slotted for we were slided for a 15-minute break at 11 15
1:17:36 – You want come back at?
1:17:41 – 20 11 40
1:17:45 – Sound good, okay
1:17:51 – Call the meeting back to order
1:17:59 – Yeah, so I think we’ll jump back in here for the conversation,
1:18:03 – but post break, is there any other comments or?
1:18:07 – Sorry.
1:18:10 – Yeah. So I was thinking about questions.
1:18:12 – During the break.
1:18:13 – So we we had left off with, you know, concrete recommendations about system
1:18:18 – managing.
1:18:19 – But then I guess the follow up question is that is what do you envision system
1:18:27 – the airports to do for the gap.
1:18:30 – You’ve got to hand that Charlie Mariner.
1:18:32 – Oh, okay.
1:18:34 – Charlie, I will call you after my question.
1:18:38 – Yeah.
1:18:39 – Yeah, so what, right.
1:18:41 – So what if you’re, you know, what do you think,
1:18:44 – what are you thinking that airports are able to
1:18:45 – do?
1:18:46 – Let me put the question back to you.
1:18:47 – Yeah?
1:18:48 – How much freedom are we given financially?
1:18:52 – Because if we operate, this is a system.
1:18:56 – key who decided that, I’m assuming that’s what the state legislature says, all bets are
1:19:01 – off.
1:19:02 – Then you’ve got an enormous amount of freedom to spend money across airports.
1:19:08 – You have enormous amounts of freedoms where you can show you the capacity constraint,
1:19:13 – to work with your operators, to encourage them to spread among airports, if you care
1:19:24 – And, if you have some money that is not airport money, spending money on surface access, which
1:19:35 – at places like SEA, and maybe even paying field are critical.
1:19:39 – So, the flexibility is really almost the limits of your creativity if your are given that
1:19:49 – And Evan, let me say, one of the pieces in our work order for the second half of 26 is for Peter to take the lead on providing a legal and a regulatory view of system management and compare that to where things are today and say what’s permitted, what
1:20:12 – on what that would mean and then you can make a decision on whether you want to
1:20:17 – use that to inform any recommendation to the legislature as it as to use a
1:20:23 – practical example so let’s say one of our multi-modal priorities was making
1:20:35 – sure that it was as fast and easy as possible at Painfield for passengers
1:20:42 – But there was going to be a cost associated with a moving walkway, setting aside some
1:20:52 – issues with where you put it.
1:20:57 – A system or at least coordination could potentially allow SEA Airport, almost at CTAC, to fund
1:21:12 – pay, for example. I think once you get rid of those artificial barriers, looking for
1:21:23 – sources of money becomes pretty flex. Maybe it’s SEA, maybe it is state transportation
1:21:29 – money, it may be the aviation fuel tax, I can keep going here. Because these sorts of
1:21:41 – that’s not just one source and if you get rid of the boundaries that limit your sources then
1:21:49 – now look you’re gonna have to think about all the other needs that you want to spend that aviation
1:21:52 – that massive amount of aviation fuel money on um and for those who aren’t on the phone i was
1:21:58 – smiling when i said that um uh that almost goes along the way in the area oh no no now no it
1:22:08 – I mean, all kidding aside, I think you’re actually right, and I don’t want to go spending
1:22:13 – our money, but the point being that if you sit down at a table with all of these constraints,
1:22:20 – then you can figure out how best to fund them, rather than having to say, sorry, carriers
1:22:26 – at Pain Field, you have to pay for that moving walkway, or sorry Sound Transit,
1:22:32 – you’ll have pay that move walk way.
1:22:35 – Yeah, and let me just give you one other practical example because yours is a bit hypothetical and we haven’t seen it done yet
1:22:43 – But I’ve done work in the past for the Metropolitan Airport’s Commission in Minneapolis, St. Paul
1:22:49 – They have six airports in this system one of which
1:22:53 – You know MSP or Minneapolis St Paul Airport is A Delta hub
1:22:58 – they are permitted to
1:23:00 – subsidize the other five non-commercial service airports in the Mac, as they call it, in order
1:23:08 – to divert the general aviation traffic that would otherwise be at MSP to airports like
1:23:14 – St. Paul downtown and Flying Cloud.
1:23:20 – at MSP so Delta and the other airlines can have more flights. Without that that GA traffic would
1:23:27 – be at that airport and you would not have the ability to have as many commercial service flights
1:23:32 – so because they are a system they can cross subsidize those other general aviation airports
1:23:39 – and improve the performance of M SP by reducing delays and congestion and dedicating more of the
1:23:50 – I’ll catch up for you, thank you.
1:24:00 – Sorry I finally got on.
1:24:02 – Good discussions. I mean, I’m sitting here listening and I know it’s difficult to do it remotely, but
1:24:07 – Wish I were there but all these are good discussions
1:24:10 – I am hearing I still kind of feel like we’re building we are building a scope
1:24:15 – We’re still like working on our scope a little bit see and where we going to go
1:24:18 – What I’ve heard about this I think rich would suggest it first
1:24:22 – But there’s been a lot of discussion about the you know the region regional approach or regional task to this and
1:24:27 – I like that I second that.
1:24:29 – I I Think it is a good approach
1:24:31 – for us to look at the regional aspect that it’s like we are talking about.
1:24:36 – I want to jump back a little bit and talk about the stacking of things that we’re going
1:24:43 – to looking at to alleviate the capacity problems we have at CTAC.
1:24:53 – are we going to prioritize them? And once we prioritize
1:24:57 – them, we’re going, hey, these are these the ones we can actually work on.
1:25:01 – These are the one’s we could get the biggest reward
1:25:05 – out of by approaching, you know, the the
1:25:09 – the stacked improvements that you talked about are,
1:25:11 – you, know some of the stack improvements. I think you
1:25:13 – know where I’m going. You know which one to work
1:25:14 – on first, which ones to second, work for
1:25:19 – It was really beneficial for me to learn that PDX and Vancouver have their own capacity
1:25:30 – issues.
1:25:31 – I didn’t think about it until you brought the slide up, but of course they’re growing.
1:25:36 – Of course, both are growing and both of them are going to have our own capacities, our
1:25:41 – constraints, and they may not be able to help us with our problem that we have here in Seattle.
1:25:49 – Oh, we’re going to now take a look at the other airports, you know,
1:25:56 – you paint field, Boeing Field, Bellingham, I don’t know what’s South Olympia,
1:26:01 – and then, after that,
1:26:03 – I want to take anything away from Yakima on the others over there.
1:26:06 – But, up and down the high-five corridor,
1:26:09 – we are going have another look
1:26:12 – at using those airports to help us with our capacity constraints.
1:26:18 – So, I just wanted to throw my thoughts out there, and also, you know,
1:26:23 – I like the approach.
1:26:24 – We’re also talking about policy issues.
1:26:27 – Obviously, those are in there as well.
1:26:29 – Those are more outside of my wheelhouse, but all important.
1:26:33 – So that’s my input, thank you for that.
1:26:37 – You want to respond to it?
1:26:42 – I would just say yes.
1:26:45 – We are doing that, yes?
1:26:50 – but obviously we’re talking multi-modal at some point I think we truly have to
1:26:56 – bring the multi modal conversation into this whether that is bringing public
1:27:04 – transportation and again understanding this is about Washington State not about
1:27:10 – the nation however at at. Some point federal aviation administration is going
1:27:20 – What’s going to happen because we can no longer build out so there is that outside influence
1:27:26 – Better we embrace now
1:27:29 – Then try to address when it’s out of our hands later
1:27:36 – So bringing in transit
1:27:39 – Whether that’s federal transit administration, whether it was federal road administration
1:27:45 – if nothing else to provide insight and information on what’s happening on a
1:27:49 – national basis which is going to affect Washington State we need to start
1:27:53 – looking at that and I hate going back to Europe again but Peter my question is as
1:28:00 – nice it is is that they have all their systems integrated you know the
1:28:05 – escalator down to the rail system how much is freight tied in with the rest of
1:28:12 – Are they truly a freight and passenger system type thing
1:28:17 – that we can learn pros and cons from?
1:28:20 – And if not, how do we tie some of that in and start making that?
1:28:26 – I think we had a presentation on passenger rail early
1:28:29 – in my participation in this.
1:28:32 – But where is that going to go now since then,
1:28:35 – Federal Road Administration has moved the long distance.
1:28:41 – study forward. There is opportunities for increased passenger rail in Washington
1:28:45 – state aside from I-5 and Charlie yes most of the population is on this side of
1:28:52 – the state but there’s still 20% of population on the other side
1:28:57 – of state and it’s growing and its going to be where growth will provide
1:29:07 – high tide rises all boats, we still need to address those areas in the the
1:29:13 – Columbia region so that they can be a viable asset to the west side as we move
1:29:21 – forward. So I would definitely try to get the states rail and transit offices in
1:29:36 – So, pretty much that aviation, when do we start bringing the multimodal into the conversation,
1:29:43 – how does that then solve some of the aviation problems, but also start looking at some
1:29:47 – of those aspects that are going to be forced upon us on a federal level as well.
1:29:52 – It’s a good comment.
1:29:53 – I think that gets back to what Anne was saying, too, about just the multi-modal approach,
1:29:58 – right, to tell a lot of this.
1:30:10 – that would be really helpful, like it’s difficult to hear.
1:30:14 – All of these microphones go on.
1:30:16 – I was going to comment on that.
1:30:18 – They are on TV.
1:30:19 – Those are for TV, the owl.
1:30:22 – We should be looking at the Owl when we’re talking.
1:30:25 – So we’ve got to do that ourselves.
1:30:27 – We’re on the diagram.
1:30:30 – We’ll better project.
1:30:32 – Thank you.
1:30:34 – So I think, do you have another question?
1:30:37 – Oh, I just look at to see if there was anybody
1:30:40 – up there. I did have a couple of thoughts. If we have another chapter, say, in the annual
1:31:10 – If we’re envisioning our project as, you know,
1:31:13 – short-term, medium term, longest term.
1:31:16 – And,
1:31:20 – you what,
1:31:22 – you some of our conversations that we brought up,
1:31:26 – that there are certain very identifiable constraints.
1:31:31 – What have you all seen so far in the airports here
1:31:40 – Attack first if we were prioritizing funding whether is it airside with some of the fuel tax money on you know
1:31:49 – High-speed runway exit at pain field that’s in their master plan funding that year sooner than they might do it
1:31:55 – otherwise or is
1:31:57 – it
1:31:57 – another lane to the terminal at
1:32:00 – SCA even though they just put one in or as it
1:32:04 – Something else or has it you no seed funding for sustainable aviation fuel? I mean
1:32:09 – Those sorts of real specific, but the low-hanging fruit short-term priorities, and maybe that’s
1:32:20 – a bigger question you can answer right now.
1:32:22 – But I’m thinking about making it as specific as possible for the legislature in the next
1:32:27 – session.
1:32:29 – Sure.
1:32:30 – Yeah, I don’t think-
1:32:34 – Yeah.
1:32:35 – Oh.
1:32:36 – Thank you.
1:32:39 – today’s the day for that, but we can certainly provide what we’ve seen at the airports, perhaps
1:32:46 – at next meeting and what I’ve heard from them about what’s in their plans and how that will
1:32:54 – make a difference in terms of capacity. I think on the rail and transit and the multimodal
1:33:01 – side, we should, that’s going to be a little bit of the work this fall, and we could talk
1:33:08 – who might make sense to invite for that.
1:33:12 – Just to address your question, though, about Europe,
1:33:15 – I think I used to be head of Intermodal for USDOT.
1:33:19 – So when we met with the Europeans,
1:33:22 – we would sort of admire their passenger intermodals
1:33:25 – and they would admire our freight intermodel.
1:33:29 – Rail in Europe is, it’s there in major ports like Rotterdam,
1:33:33 – but it is not anywhere near the kind of freight network we have
1:33:38 – very much like to take trucks off the road in Europe and the way that we’re able to do
1:33:43 – by putting containers on rail cars here.
1:33:47 – So both, you know, there are learnings that can do for both.
1:33:51 – The one thing that I think is important though that you brought up is transportation can’t
1:33:56 – be thought of in isolation and as eastern Washington areas like Spokane, Yakima, others
1:34:04 – you have to do transportation in places that you want to encourage land development, housing,
1:34:11 – businesses, other things. And part of our problem in the past in
1:34:15 – the States is that we’ve thought of those things in isolation,
1:34:18 – and then we’re in a pickle and we figure out what we are going to
1:34:21 – do about it. I don’t think I need a mic anyway, I got a big mouth.
1:34:29 – That there is the statewide system plan, but how much outside of the state updating that does?
1:34:36 – Aviation talk to ports talk too
1:34:40 – Talk to aviation talk the transit
1:34:43 – Throughout the day
1:34:45 – That’s what I was guessing
1:34:47 – You know that that’s something that Yakima is facing is we’ve had all of our modes
1:34:54 – siloed for a century
1:34:56 – and trying to break that down just so that we can be competitive to bring more
1:35:02 – people to our airport so we have passenger rail come back to central
1:35:07 – Washington for the first time in 40 years. It’s it’s getting people
1:35:10 – to think outside that and if if our own DOT is not having that conversation our
1:35:16 – own legislature there those you know transportation specific groups within
1:35:26 – coordinating and communicating, then we’re just going to be screaming into the wind here
1:35:34 – unless we bring all of those to bear.
1:35:36 – I think that gets a lot Peter mentioned earlier, right, about authorizing and then even mandating
1:35:42 – it, that cooperation, all right.
1:35:44 – Can I go back to having your question about priorities here?
1:35:48 – And I’d like to take the Progative of Askin and Stephen.
1:35:51 – Can you speak louder?
1:35:57 – From what you’ve seen the data
1:35:59 – What is the constraint that you’re most worried about?
1:36:04 – Today
1:36:05 – I’m not saying it’s the most important but but in terms of timing priority
1:36:09 – Which one are you most worry about today and and I asked that cuz Evan
1:36:13 – I think that if we start then going down that list and then say
1:36:16 – We know time-wise what’s most important,
1:36:19 – now let’s look at money- wise, and the severity
1:36:22 – and how long it’s allowed me, it requires a complex analysis.
1:36:26 – But I’m not sure I know the answer to the question.
1:36:28 – Today, what is our biggest problem?
1:36:31 – It, today’s problem really is defined by the fact
1:36:39 – that capital infrastructure and planning
1:36:41 – at infrastructure has a very long timeline.
1:36:44 – in the United States.
1:36:46 – So if we say, for instance, it’s the state, let’s just say
1:36:49 – has the ability today to accommodate 55 million,
1:36:53 – 60 million passengers, and that we’re going to need
1:36:56 – 110, 115, 120 million in future,
1:37:00 – how do you actually build that?
1:37:02 – But part of why we are taking the first step first here
1:37:06 – is saying that’s not our decision number one.
1:37:09 – And number two, that’s going to take so long,
1:37:11 – and in the mid-time, we’re going
1:37:13 – to have these constraints.
1:37:14 – So I’d rather turn it around and say,
1:37:19 – what can you do on an incremental basis
1:37:22 – to improve the situation within the timeline of this group?
1:37:26 – And that goes anywhere from SAMP.
1:37:29 – to the expansion at Pain Field, to perhaps at Boeing Field
1:37:34 – reallocating capacity in some respects.
1:37:38 – I think there’s a lot of different things you can do.
1:37:41 – I’d rather consider those sort of on a full inventory
1:37:46 – that we give this group, so this
1:37:48 – group can make recommendations about what’s 1, 2, 3, 4, 5,
1:37:53 – and sort the bang for the buck.
1:37:55 – How much of this investment will lead to this much?
1:37:58 – capacity. It’s almost as though we need a matrix where we list the capacity right and then we say
1:38:07 – what or the quantity constraint and we then list what it is we
1:38:11 – need to solve that capacity constraint. And if the answer is you know we
1:38:15 – need.
1:38:15 – new technology okay well that’s going to go further down. If it is that we need
1:38:19 – another lane on I-5 okay we’re going push that over to that group over here
1:38:23 – if it’s that need a new high-speed taxiway and I’m going
1:38:27 – to use those illustrations. Once we have that at a granular level
1:38:31 – then I think we can talk about the funding and the timing
1:38:35 – much more. Yeah and and i’ll just add i think it goes one step further where
1:38:39 – the specific uses of certain property at airports
1:38:45 – Is that is that the best for the system and that he is?
1:38:50 – extraordinarily controversial yeah, yes
1:38:57 – We address the immediate needs that’s that c-tax so so building out what we need so we maximize their capacity at that point
1:39:04 – Then you start looking at second love you look at pain field
1:39:08 – Do that, but then you’re also still looking and investing now cross the modes
1:39:14 – into Tri-Cities Yakima Spokane, Wenatchee at low cost now versus higher cost in the future.
1:39:23 – So it’s still that same dollar, maybe not 95 cents goes to CTAC,
1:39:30 – maybe 80, but even if Yakama gets that one penny,
1:39:35 – that it is not getting now to start addressing capacity again,
1:39:39 – whether it was on site or off site.
1:39:42 – in preparation to benefit the system and I can keep going back
1:39:46 – system as a whole then it’s cheaper
1:39:49 – 20 years from now than it is trying to come back to
1:39:53 – those non-CTAC airports and
1:39:55 – then try to fund capacity growth
1:40:00 – is it. So the matrix idea is good
1:40:03 – but spreading across. We have to look at how long it takes us
1:40:11 – we’ve all decided the solution is high-speed rail, okay?
1:40:15 – Great.
1:40:16 – That’s 40 years out.
1:40:18 – Well, actually we have a problem in less than 40.
1:40:20 – Okay, what could we bring online in 2028, 29,
1:40:25 – all the way up to 2100?
1:40:27 – And your point is, is because, I think what I’m hearing you say,
1:40:31 – I mean, usually high speed rail is sort of the out,
1:40:33 – because it takes a long, rail across the mountains.
1:40:36 – We’re not going to be able to realize that in less than 50 years or 40 years
1:40:41 – or something like that. Okay, that’s great. We can start on that path on your on
1:40:45 – your gift charter on Your Matrix, right? But it’s going
1:40:48 – to give you nothing for the next 40
1:40:49 – years and by then it you know to do it.
1:40:52 – Access to the interstate. Yeah.
1:40:54 – Aside from that because you can do that sooner so you
1:40:57 – can have better transit between airports or airports and
1:41:03 – passenger rail facilities.
1:41:05 – While, yeah, you’re still working on the tunnel through the Cascades, or you are working
1:41:10 – on trying to get I-5 high-speed rail built,
1:41:14 – you can still invest a little bit at a lesser cost now.
1:41:19 – It might slow down those bigger ticket items, but at the same time,
1:41:24 – you ARE starting to address those lower level issues that could have a cumulative benefits
1:41:30 – by the time you get to that point that you
1:41:35 – when Denver Stableton Airport was facing a capacity crunch and they decided to build a new airport.
1:41:42 – The first step they did was to extend the runway at the existing airport,
1:41:47 – that just seemed crazy, why are you doing that?
1:41:50 – Well, it’s because it was going to be five, seven years out before the new Airport
1:41:54 – was available, they needed something that handled the next five to seven year,
1:41:57 – but a lot of people thought that was just nuts.
1:42:00 – that you were improving an airport that was going to close,
1:42:02 – but I think your point is exactly there,
1:42:04 – is that if we looked at this as a system,
1:42:07 – we know that we have to do something today to improve
1:42:09 – by five, even though we are eventually going
1:42:12 – to be putting rail down the middle or something like that.
1:42:15 – It’s interesting, Peter, about the new Denver airport,
1:42:20 – new, I say it’s 20, 35 years old now,
1:42:23 – but they built this thing out in the farmland,
1:42:26 – 25, 30 miles from downtown Denver.
1:42:29 – But now, if you’ve been there recently, they have light rail all the way out there so you can get there conveniently.
1:42:36 – And there’s a whole city that’s cropped up around this airport.
1:42:40 – So, it’s amazing. I mean, what comes first, the chicken or the egg, you know?
1:42:45 – But…
1:42:46 – Just decide.
1:42:48 – You just decide what you’re going to do.
1:42:52 – Steven, have your hand up and you put it down?
1:42:56 – Yeah.
1:42:59 – OK.
1:43:02 – At some point, I want to make sure we hear from everybody.
1:43:05 – There are some folks who haven’t made comments yet.
1:43:08 – And you used to please jump in.
1:43:11 – Or I don’t think I’d want a cold call anybody,
1:43:14 – but my professor hat back on.
1:43:19 – So if you want address kind of thoughts about the.
1:43:27 – the work plan that okay yes so we got about 10 more minutes and then we’re going to break
1:43:31 – for lunch I think so maybe this will set up you can think about some things over lunch
1:43:38 – and we’ll do the public comment and that we will resume our conversation after that.
1:43:47 – So I believe Charlie alluded to the conversation like we are still building our scope and I
1:43:56 – of this group and then our consultant team is it’s a little dynamic right as we have some
1:44:00 – conversations we want to be able to to help you and have resources so that we can do some of the
1:44:07 – work that you want us to do. So so we’ve built a work plan that kind of goes through next June
1:44:14 – with working with DOT. We’ve set up where we’d continue to have these these hybrid meetings
1:44:23 – and then three into next year as well.
1:44:27 – We did provide some resources for our committee structure.
1:44:30 – We could accommodate up to three committees.
1:44:33 – Those would be virtual meetings that would meet
1:44:37 – in between these official meetings
1:44:39 – and the expectation depending on
1:44:44 – what those committees would get set up as.
1:44:47 – They would report back at the next meeting
1:44:49 – of what the conversations and agenda was of those meetings.
1:44:52 – as well and then
1:44:54 – The following here is just technical resources to support so if there’s the topics that come up in those committees
1:45:01 – We’d have the ability within the constraints of the scope and fee to
1:45:07 – To bring back and do some research for those committee’s so that they could make decisions or give additional guidance
1:45:15 – And then the others are really topics topical areas that we’ve kind of covered here, so
1:45:21 – I think we were hoping to try to anticipate some of the conversations and where we might
1:45:26 – go, but you know, the kind of thinking, systems thinking as we’ve been talking about a lot
1:45:32 – here today.
1:45:34 – The intermodal adjacencies, right, we talked about that again as well, and getting down
1:45:39 – deeper into bringing them, bringing those resources to talk to the work group, understanding
1:45:45 – what’s going on more in the other modes aswell.
1:45:50 – Airport or the future, some of the things that, you know, technology-wise, different aircraft, fuel.
1:45:58 – I mean, there’s, even going as far as hydrogen fueling and some
1:46:02 – of those types of things. What do those mean for the airports and
1:46:06 – system as we move forward? We talked a little bit about the cost of
1:46:10 – doing nothing, so the state is in the process of updating their
1:46:14 – economic impact of airports.
1:46:16 – But even beyond that, you know, the businesses in different entities that rely on that.
1:46:22 – If we don’t do anything to adjust this capacity and constraint, what does that mean?
1:46:27 – Both for recreational travel as well as businesses here.
1:46:31 – And then the trickle down effect of the jobs that those companies and
1:46:35 – that relay on aviation in the air system that we have.
1:46:40 – And that ultimately kind of all encompassing.
1:46:44 – comment and getting into the more details of you know what do we do about it so you
1:46:50 – know the the concrete prioritization of whether that’s a matrix of here’s the things that you
1:46:55 – know would would provide the best bang for the buck or the
1:47:01 – best efficiency to the system or more capacity and start to get to pull it all together into
1:47:12 – Well, the only thing I would add is we do continue to sort of re-scope and look at things.
1:47:18 – But if it’s okay, I thought I’d put up what we’ve achieved during the three meetings
1:47:24 – that we have had so far and what will be the basis of, however, whatever form the annual
1:47:29 – report takes, we will report on these elements.
1:47:41 – We go to
1:47:43 – Let’s see here
1:47:45 – Yeah, so
1:47:49 – Up there you will see
1:47:52 – What we’ve what we have done
1:47:55 – You know presented the information updated the forecast talked about small community air service
1:48:02 – track the updated forecasts with PSRC washing DOT
1:48:07 – analyze the effects of changing demand airline strategies and passengers per
1:48:11 – operation, reviewed airport capacities as well as their space limitations for
1:48:16 – airports, coordinated with Port of Seattle on the SAMP expansion of existing
1:48:20 – facilities, noted site selections and multimodal alternatives are unlikely to
1:48:25 – provide significant new air aviation capacity before 2045, recommended that
1:48:36 – capacity and obviously address your comments and questions from meeting participants.
1:48:43 – So this laid the groundwork for the second half plan that Mark just indicated and I think
1:48:50 – this material will all be in some form in the annual report.
1:48:56 – So I know it might not seem it sometimes when we’re talking constantly about the future,
1:49:06 – and sort of the future challenges that the state has.
1:49:10 – And now the question is, what alternatives do we have
1:49:13 – to address those which we’ll be providing to you all?
1:49:17 – Yeah. Are we, time is it?
1:49:28 – Three minutes until.
1:49:30 – Yeah, I think it’s actually a good place
1:49:32 – to leave off for lunch and we will pick up our, yeah.
1:49:35 – Yeah, think about that over lunch, right?
1:49:38 – And then we really have the afternoon session from 1.15
1:49:42 – to 2.45, about 90 minutes to just have further discussion.
1:49:46 – So keep the conversation going.
1:49:49 – OK.
1:49:50 – All right, so let’s break it till 12.
1:49:52 – 45.
1:50:32 – you guys have graciously allowed me to sit in on your meetings and I’ve learned so
1:50:36 – much. I was curious about a couple things and Steve I should have asked you
1:50:41 – this way back when. But when we were looking at the passenger growth numbers
1:50:47 – was that correlated or adjusted for population growth or is it just highly
1:50:53 – correlated population?
1:51:01 – GDP related. And GDP obviously has projections of population growth in it. So the forecast
1:51:10 – itself, I mean, we could do a rate, but the forecasts itself is just the numbers. But
1:51:15 – the forecast is driven by GDP growth, which is based in part on population. Yes.
1:51:22 – you know, if travel demand was increasing at an increasing rate over population.
1:51:26 – That would be, is there an increase in the propensity to travel is what we would say.
1:51:31 – And we’ve actually benchmarked the Seattle region on propensity
1:51:39 – to trouble.
1:51:40 – It tends to be a little bit higher, but that’s because GDP is higher.
1:51:45 – And GDP,
1:51:50 – as a country or as an individual, you fly more and then it starts even and out, it gets kind of
1:51:56 – asymptopic and it doesn’t have the same sort of growth rate anymore. But we have that data,
1:52:02 – I think it was in our first presentation, but I’m happy to share it back.
1:52:07 – I just remember and I thought I was going to add and
1:52:09 – I I didn’t think you did share that but but i couldn’t remember. And then the other thing,
1:52:19 – Working group, if you will, but I was kind of surprised that there wasn’t more of an organized
1:52:25 – Coordination a system as you called it because I would have thought it might be nice to have
1:52:31 – Again, it’s the team here mentioned an overarching kind coordination of you know silo
1:52:37 – Who’s doing this improvement who’s during that movement?
1:52:40 – But related to that when we were talking I think and you’d mentioned the funding from the aviation fuel tax
1:52:47 – Is that, oh, sorry, is that already being used and is it carved up, I guess?
1:52:57 – How’s it being use now, or is this a bad question?
1:53:15 – On that, if we were going to have some commingled funding,
1:53:19 – what would you think, Eryphus, would
1:53:21 – you like to take your money and fund the high speed escalator
1:53:26 – up at Payne Field?
1:53:27 – Would you feel like you wanted to protect your silo?
1:53:30 – Or I guess I was just interested in that.
1:53:33 – I mean, but we have already been working here.
1:53:37 – We talk together all the time.
1:53:38 – We share best practices,
1:53:39 – but, we understand the challenge we face
1:53:41 – in this state has to be a systems approach, right?
1:53:44 – We don’t look at it like, this is my approach to yours.
1:53:46 – We look as a system.
1:53:49 – But, where those dollars go and everything,
1:53:50 – it ultimately, that’s our elected body’s decision.
1:53:53 – That’s not gonna be individual manager’s decisions.
1:53:56 – we do have an elected body that decides where the funding is.
1:53:59 – When we look at the matrix, if you guys do try to identify somehow prioritizing recommendations
1:54:06 – and improvements, I think as you talked about what the potential benefit would be, you know,
1:54:14 – issues that say SCA, but also maybe how that would impact or alleviate congestion
1:54:22 – on the highway. So being able to do that, so benefits and cons. But also waiting
1:54:27 – those by environmental impacts, you know, how is that going to impact the citizens.
1:54:31 – So you hear the pro economically on this end,
1:54:34 – but you’re also weighting it by any detrimental impacts.
1:54:39 – you know to the public and then you have it like an aggregated score so that was
1:54:44 – the only other thing. Thanks guys.
1:54:57 – I am now unmuted. Can you hear me? Yes, yes. Wonderful. I’ll be again. Greetings
1:55:07 – Members, I’m Dr. Brekla Begg, Co-Chair of Climate and Health Task Force, Washington
1:55:12 – Physicians for Social Responsibility. Transport policy is health policy. Here’s how,
1:55:20 – burning fuel produces PM2.5 particles that cause heart and lung disease, dementia,
1:55:26 – and premature death. Those are pricey.
1:55:30 – Transport is the largest source of carbon emissions in Washington.
1:55:34 – Aviation is the most energy-intensive particle-admitter per passenger mile.
1:55:40 – Those harms and real money costs are silently shifted to airport communities and healthcare
1:55:47 – systems without informed consent to treat costly illness and raise insurance costs for
1:55:53 – all of us.
1:55:55 – Washington law and climate science requires us to reduce emissions.
1:56:03 – airport expansion. Today’s trains are the least energy intensive and lowest
1:56:09 – emitter per passenger mile. WPSR says more trains not more lanes not
1:56:16 – more planes. Rather than build or expand airports and increase flights we are
1:56:22 – respectfully advocate rapid mode shift to rail. More North South Cascades trips
1:56:28 – restore the Seattle to Pasco passenger trains like we had until 1980. So will we
1:56:35 – keep doing what we doing, get more of what
1:56:37 – we got, or will choose healthy transport modes? WPSR stands ready to advise you of
1:56:43 – health consequences of aviation policy. Thank you for transport decisions that
1:56:48 – maintain our public health.
1:56:58 – I’ll give a moment if you want to raise your hand.
1:57:07 – Okay, seeing none, that concludes the public comment portion of this meeting.
1:57:12 – For those who didn’t get a chance or can always submit public comments on the website under the contact tab.
1:57:19 – I will now turn it back over to Evan.
1:57:22 – All right.
1:57:27 – to have lunch, talking about solutions for the capacity gap,
1:57:33 – and looking ahead to continually work the second half
1:57:39 – of the year on preparing the annual report.
1:57:44 – And before we do that, I want to give Brandon an opportunity
1:57:47 – to share a little bit about his airport.
1:57:50 – And for some of us,
1:57:52 – I don’t believe everybody’s going on the tour,
1:57:56 – I’ll say a little bit about the airport and then we’ll hear the rest on the on
1:57:59 – the tour. Thank you. Yeah, thank you very much. So my name is Brandon Ranks. I’m the
1:58:03 – airport director for the Che Ellis Central Airport. The way I always like to describe
1:58:07 – our airport is we are big for a Little Airport, but Little for A Big Airport so we have we
1:58:12 – have great infrastructure. We’re approaching our 100th anniversary next year.
1:58:17 – So we’ve been around for not quite as long as aviation but pretty close.
1:58:21 – And we are really on the edge, I think, of a new chapter for our airport.
1:58:28 – A few years ago, we started work on our master plan update, and through that process, one
1:58:35 – of the key items that I wanted to ensure we included in our Master Plan update was looking
1:58:40 – at the future and how we could best find our niche within that.
1:58:44 – So we focused on including advanced air mobility within our
1:58:50 – And since that time, it’s really opened up the door for us to re-imagine
1:58:55 – what a general aviation airport could be.
1:58:58 – So you start to look at your role in the community as a General Aviation Airport
1:59:02 – where we’re already economic engines for the Community.
1:59:05 – But what can we do in addition to that?
1:59:08 – So as we start look to at clean aviation, because as was mentioned earlier,
1:59:12 – aviation traditionally is not necessarily the cleanest mode of transportation,
1:59:19 – gives us an opportunity to take advantage of clean.
1:59:24 – efficient air travel. So we start looking at airports as energy hubs within our community
1:59:30 – because if we’re going to electrify the aircraft, we need to ensure that we electrifying our
1:59:34 – airports. And then we also started to look at the possibility of adding hydrogen as a
1:59:41 – fuel source long term. With our location between Seattle and Portland right on I-5,
1:59:52 – able to push forward with that. So a couple years ago we received a grant and in 2025
1:59:58 – We started a hydrogen multimodal hub feasibility study.
2:00:03 – So we’re well underway with that,
2:00:04 – but we are looking at the possibility of including hydrogen
2:00:07 – to help fuel aircraft in the future
2:00:09 – and keep things moving forward.
2:00:12 – So that’s a little bit about our airport.
2:00:15 – I look forward to talking more about it today on the tour
2:00:17 – if you’re able to attend and answer any questions
2:00:20 – that you guys have later today.
2:00:21 – So thank you.
2:00:24 – Thank you for that.
2:00:24 – I appreciate that and go ahead.
2:00:27 – Yeah, for a big little airport, Brandon and
2:00:35 – Shayla’s Lewis County have shown some remarkable leadership in
2:00:43 – getting developing the airport in a way that it’s financially sustainable.
2:00:49 – And looking at the future.
2:00:53 – transition in the aviation industry and figuring out how they fit into it. So good job Brandon,
2:00:58 – I wanted to give you a public attaboy. Where’s my boss left early today?
2:01:05 – But thank you Ann, I appreciate that. Well I think just to tag on to that right it’s why
2:01:10 – we identified this as a potential host right so that we could hear about what’s going on there
2:01:18 – when we’re talking about the long lead time, the little things that, you know, airports
2:01:22 – can do to set up themselves for the future, right?
2:01:26 – I think Chehalis is a good example of that.
2:01:28 – And some of the things he’s talking
2:01:29 – about, they’re getting there, but they are going to be 10, 15 years from now when they
2:01:33 – are really, probably going
2:01:36 – to ready for that and where other airports might not be.
2:01:42 – transportation, what we can do right now. I think we have some really low hanging fruit at our
2:01:46 – public use airports throughout our state. So when we look at just our State, and obviously this is
2:01:50 – much bigger than just Our State. But we had roughly 130 public Use airports within the state of
2:01:56 – Washington. If we were to electrify one third of those, we could do that for I would estimate less
2:02:02 – than the cost of one bridge over I five. And so we start looking at return on investment and how we
2:02:08 – help move people and goods around our state.
2:02:12 – I think this won’t solve all of the problems for sure,
2:02:15 – but it will go a long way toward helping
2:02:17 – prepare us for that future.
2:02:19 – And we can do that for a relatively low cost.
2:02:21 – Not that $40 million would be an inexpensive proposition,
2:02:26 – but when we start looking at how much we could bring
2:02:29 – traditionally underutilized infrastructure.
2:02:32 – to a utilized infrastructure, there’s a huge opportunity there.
2:02:35 – And while we talk about the commercial airports a lot,
2:02:39 – SEA, Boeing Field and Pain Field, right?
2:02:42 – That’s an example.
2:02:43 – These airports play a role in even the solutions
2:02:46 – that we’re looking for, and better utilizing them,
2:02:50 – and then even greater optimization
2:02:52 – of the Commercial airports by, you know, whether it’s…
2:02:55 – you know, providing facilities that some GA users might want to use and opening up that
2:03:02 – space at the bigger airports.
2:03:03 – Yeah, and I would even encourage this group, if I may, just to say, include and, I know
2:03:08 – advanced her mobility has been talked about this, but make sure that when we’re looking
2:03:12 – at that multimodal transportation, that I will almost advocate that advanced
2:03:21 – multimodal, almost separately from traditional aviation, because it is a new and different
2:03:28 – opportunity. But I think there’s a lot of growth potential there. So great. Good stuff.
2:03:34 – Thank you. Yeah.
2:03:35 – Somewhere in the back of my mind, there was, and this might have been here. I did it.
2:03:42 – There was a piece of property around here that used to be an old cold mine that was
2:03:48 – available that might be available for a new airport.
2:03:52 – Am I pipe dreaming or is that?
2:03:54 – No, you’re in the right place for that discussion.
2:03:57 – So the Transalta Commons, which is where we are,
2:04:00 – so Transalta had the coal mine that was out there.
2:04:04 – And that, that one was discussed at one point
2:04:06 – as a possible location.
2:04:08 – So that goes back several years ago now, but I believe it is.
2:04:16 – But yeah, good memory though. That is it was a discussion point, so
2:04:23 – Okay, great. Thank you for that. We’ll look forward to the tour later. Yeah, thank you
2:04:28 – Okay. So yeah just back on the agenda
2:04:31 – It was meant to be discussion time right some kind of continue the discussion
2:04:35 – Kind of laid out generally
2:04:37 – What we’ll be looking to do or at least from a resource standpoint what the work group has available to them
2:04:45 – So this time was met to further that discussion.
2:04:48 – Now, we can also further the discussion of the annual report
2:04:52 – because we don’t want to wait until the last minute for that as well.
2:04:55 – So I’m thinking more of what the process would be to get something on paper there
2:05:02 – and get the work group to react to it, see it and move it forward.
2:05:13 – a committee focused on the annual report, a subcommittee,
2:05:16 – focused in the Annual Report,
2:05:17 – what were the other subcommittee thoughts you had?
2:05:21 – Want to talk about some of the system engagement?
2:05:26 – Could be surface transport access solutions.
2:05:30 – Because if you think about it,
2:05:31 – we might get into some really kind of technical detail.
2:05:35 – Like what should the alignment of that be
2:05:37 – if it’s near this airport?
2:05:38 – Does it require a shuttle?
2:05:40 – Is that location practical?
2:05:42 – I think if we sort of cogitate on that in the committee
2:05:47 – and then report it out back to here,
2:05:49 – we can still get the benefits of the discussion,
2:05:52 – but we would have narrowed it a little bit.
2:05:54 – So that doesn’t become all-consuming.
2:05:59 – So it’s the same thing with an annual report, right?
2:06:02 – We could get some things on paper
2:06:05 – and start to, based on the conversations,
2:06:08 – get that narrowed to.
2:06:09 – something that we could then be shared with the work group at the next meeting.
2:06:15 – Yeah, ideally we would get guidance on the annual report.
2:06:18 – We would then turn around maybe a draft to that committee and two or three weeks after
2:06:23 – that.
2:06:24 – And then you guys could give us comments back.
2:06:26 – It then comes to this group for a report out and a discussion.
2:06:30 – It’s sort of a first reading and committee, and second reading, the full CAG, so to speak.
2:06:39 – for you to decide to, right, and we don’t want to dictate what that is.
2:06:45 – Right, other than we have the resources to manage the three of them.
2:06:50 – Right. So you mentioned three. If you had a third thought, what was that?
2:06:55 – Just to get a discussion.
2:06:57 – I mean, maybe the policy and stuff around the regulatory of the system.
2:07:25 – I was trying to think of other priorities that I’ve heard the group express and you know other folks feel free to chime in but if we had
2:07:33 – We had an annual report committee and then two other subcommittees
2:07:39 – Or we say
2:07:42 – That
2:07:44 – If we have more than two priorities, we just sort of divide them between two sub committees and let the subcommittee members kind of
2:07:52 – Work accordingly
2:07:54 – Well, I was gonna say they don’t need to be standing either
2:07:58 – You can just we can sort of create them as we need them
2:08:01 – Yeah, and change them right the end of report once any reports done. We could we could do something else
2:08:14 – We’ve had a little bit of discussion this morning about
2:08:19 – Multimodal planning that would address the
2:08:23 – Air service capacity issue
2:08:26 – So I wonder if that might be a subcommittee that people would be interested in
2:08:30 – Like looking at multi-modal issues and maybe developing
2:08:38 – Additional planning that the state could do in the multi modal area. Yeah, no, I think that I
2:08:45 – Yeah I agree
2:08:54 – Other thoughts from the worker?
2:08:56 – All right.
2:08:58 – Thank you.
2:08:59 – I know we’re getting back to kind of
2:09:02 – the beginning of when we started
2:09:04 – to design after looking for the report,
2:09:07 – the legislative setting out regional design
2:09:10 – was a big one, so making sure that we
2:09:12 – are connected to how that regional
2:09:13 – design looked like.
2:09:14 – And then we have some sort of timeline
2:09:16 – that you know our draft before is October,
2:09:19 – which is July now, mid-July, right?
2:09:22 – So we’re leading up to that first sort of marker.
2:09:25 – So with these committees, one of the committees starting,
2:09:28 – one is a breakout for that,
2:09:30 – and then our first report draft in October,
2:09:33 – because it’s doing the same thing, right?
2:09:36 – Yeah, so the timeline for the annual report
2:09:38 – would be just that right.
2:09:39 – We’d want to do something relatively quick,
2:09:42 – probably next month,
2:09:44 – right between the next meeting.
2:09:47 – Steve kind of laid out six month timeframe.
2:09:51 – And then, you know, some of this stuff is going to continue beyond that, right?
2:09:55 – So we might mention in the annual report that we’ve set up, what we’re doing and what
2:10:01 – we have accomplished, and that were going look at the system design study and some
2:10:06 – of those.
2:10:07 – I’ll put it up.
2:10:08 – Yeah.
2:10:09 – Okay.
2:10:10 – Yeah, so Steve’s got a little bit more detail of some stuff that
2:10:12 – we considered and we worked on.
2:10:19 – what capacity enhancements are possible or being made at the
2:10:22 – airports, getting to that management and optimization.
2:10:26 – And then these, as we complete that, these were the next four
2:10:30 – with Peter’s number two being the legal and regulatory options
2:10:35 – on system management.
2:10:37 – And you can see the other three that will be teeing up.
2:10:40 – And we have and some coordination to do with you on the
2:10:44 – economic impact of not addressing demand in the medium
2:10:49 – So these aren’t necessarily the committees that these are like what we’ve identified as resources to help the work group. Yes
2:10:58 – Could have
2:11:00 – Economic effect of not meeting the demand you think you’d have that in time to put it in the annual this annual report. No
2:11:07 – No
2:11:09 – Because we still have work to do about what demand can’t we meet and then we have to value it
2:11:14 – So there’s an ordering to this
2:11:17 – But next year’s for sure
2:11:29 – for the end of this year or the
2:11:30 – end this? This this annual report.
2:11:34 – I mean, I guess I see this as kind of a question to ask earlier.
2:11:39 – What are the concrete things that we can put in now for
2:11:42 – the legislature now to act on that
2:11:46 – we know would either
2:11:54 – fund or
2:11:56 – make possible specific improvements that are in the short-term future whether
2:12:04 – that’s actual actual direct improvements to airports or or multimodal or things
2:12:12 – where the planning process is going on now where if we don’t influence it now
2:12:15 – it’s never gonna happen like making sure the station that paying field is close
2:12:19 – to the paid field terminal you know the fact if sound transit makes that
2:12:24 – And, you know, that ship has sailed or the train has left the station better metaphor.
2:12:31 – Then, we’ve missed our chance.
2:12:34 – And then some of these other, if a regulatory change on systems, system planning, where
2:12:46 – they could pass a law enabling that, then we could turn around and make recommendations
2:12:51 – on how to use the new law.
2:12:53 – it’s down the road. I guess that’s how I see this first-end or that well I
2:12:58 – guess it would be our third annual report but first expanded annual
2:13:03 – report being that the first annual what’s on the screen yeah what we’ve done
2:13:23 – I don’t think they picked the location, have they?
2:13:27 – Yeah.
2:13:31 – You’ve also had prior discussions about the
2:13:35 – location of high-speed rail.
2:13:39 – And how it could benefit CTAC if it’s
2:13:43 – properly positioned. But if you’re going to have a station
2:13:47 – that took will on.
2:13:48 – Where the movie inside walk the sea tack is not gonna work
2:14:11 – Rich I saw the governor came out to Moses Lake
2:14:15 – to open a sustainable aviation fuel facility recently?
2:14:19 – It was 12, is the name of the group that’s doing that.
2:14:22 – Yeah, it’s not on the airport, but the Port of Moses Lake
2:14:26 – was helpful in getting them established here in Washington
2:14:31 – State there, working with Alaska Airlines.
2:14:36 – I do think there’s something on those lines
2:14:40 – of furthering the development.
2:14:43 – of S.A.S. production in the Pacific Northwest,
2:14:48 – but the state of Washington,
2:14:49 – whether that’s up to you, this group,
2:14:52 – whether they want, you know,
2:14:53 – that could be part of the annual report.
2:14:54 – Say like, we’d encourage the State
2:14:56 – to continue to incentivize that,
2:14:58 – because it needs that.
2:14:59 – Just speaking industry-wide, right?
2:15:02 – It needs, and then it speaks to some of
2:15:05 – the health and environmental aspects
2:15:08 – of how we can try to do better moving forward,
2:15:12 – still having a lot of demand.
2:15:14 – I think that and what we heard about AAM and UAS,
2:15:20 – those all fall into sort of the airport in aviation
2:15:24 – or other modes of future.
2:15:27 – And I thank all those are ripe to include as well.
2:15:32 – I mean, for one, I thing with the islands
2:15:35 – and some of those short haul flying
2:15:36 – and the noise and environmental sensitivity
2:15:41 – in aircraft, imagine replacing a lot of those island flights with EV dolls, and ferries.
2:15:50 – So I think those are all fair game.
2:15:53 – And those might be not that concrete, but there’s still recommendations that this work
2:15:59 – group is recognizing those that are important and those need funding, right?
2:16:05 – They’re all in various levels of maturity, you know, like UAS today, drones are…
2:16:11 – pretty much here and are developing EV tall is a little bit more downstream and but everybody
2:16:19 – a lot of states right now are working in prioritizing those and the electric infrastructure to accommodate
2:16:25 – them. Well the timing I think is great. No no please. The timing is right because this last year there
2:16:36 – And Washington State was selected as one of the multi-state collaborative applications.
2:16:44 – And so I think it fits really well with that to keep that momentum going.
2:16:48 – So hopefully we’ll leave and see a demonstration of advanced immobility very publicly at some point.
2:17:05 – or even hybrid electric. There’s a lot of variance on the theme.
2:17:13 – I’m looking to see if anybody online has their hand raised. I have to look up here.
2:17:23 – I put a link in the chat.
2:17:25 – And I know it’s not accessible to everybody, so it is a linked to a document from the National Laboratory of the Rockies, a new report.
2:17:32 – titled, An Overview of Potential Future Aviation Energy Carriers.
2:17:38 – I found it to be a useful report and I commend it for you.
2:18:01 – I would turn it back to you guys.
2:18:22 – How do you want to do it?
2:18:30 – You know, one of the advantages I think of looking at the existing airport master plans and then the newly revised airport
2:18:43 – master plan is that that planning process has already been undertaken by each of
2:18:48 – the airports that we’re looking
2:18:50 – at and they are all responsive to their local communities.
2:18:57 – Most of them frankly because they’re owned by a public entity so for pain field
2:19:04 – They’re you know that that plan that anticipates for all of the fighting that went into
2:19:12 – Eventually opening commercial service there
2:19:15 – It’s proved to be popular and popular enough that’s not which county was willing to put their name on a master plan
2:19:20 – That says we’re gonna serve six million passengers a year by
2:19:24 – A few years from now up from zero
2:19:26 – and that first zero to one million took 25 years debate.
2:19:34 – So by looking at those master plans
2:19:36 – that have already had a bit of,
2:19:38 – had that degree of community engagement and buy-in
2:19:42 – and trying to build on the,
2:19:43 – our group trying build that,
2:19:47 – strikes me as an efficient way of addressing that issue.
2:19:53 – Where the CAC ran to the problem was.
2:19:55 – identifying sites out there you know throwing out ideas where that kind of
2:20:01 – local political groundwork hadn’t been done at all and you can see Olympia now
2:20:10 – trying to mend their master plan there’s a fair amount of community opposition to
2:20:14 – that you have the or if you
2:20:29 – So I think is there anything different you would consider in that aspect of it, right?
2:20:34 – I mean the I
2:20:35 – Think bone field just went through their master plan and some of that’s a little bit of a public process
2:20:40 – It’s very different as far as their sort of impact in the way they’ve engaged with the community
2:20:44 – So it might be good to do in comparison between the different airports how they’d engage so far in different things like
2:20:51 – See by everything else
2:20:55 – What it looks like
2:20:58 – the thing that occurs to you when you read the enabling statute for the KAG is that there
2:21:12 – is a lot in there about site selection but as we’ve seen when we get into site
2:21:17 – selection it takes all the oxygen out of the room and so all these other things
2:21:25 – be it optimization, they’re not going to be heard if you start with site selection.
2:21:31 – So I think the way we’ve ordered this is logical, and that is we get into managing and optimizing.
2:21:39 – We then figure out what the economic costs are going be and the consequences of meeting
2:21:45 – or not meeting demand.
2:21:51 – a piece of what you do about it is looking at new sites.
2:21:55 – But if you haven’t done all the legwork up to there,
2:21:57 – number one, people don’t understand it.
2:21:59 – And number two, you’re also,
2:22:02 – all of the other issues that you care about
2:22:04 – are going to be obscured by this huge debate
2:22:06 – that this community doesn’t want a new airport.
2:22:09 – And so I think KAG here has ordered it right
2:22:14 – and set it up more for success.
2:22:17 – And probably the last thing we will do is site selection.
2:22:20 – I mean, that both ways.
2:22:25 – Interesting, you know, somebody said about how growth in airports during the 20th century
2:22:32 – was largely kind of haphazard, and there are some high-profile examples of communities
2:22:38 – I think of Montreal and Washington D.C. that built white elephants out in the middle of
2:22:42 – nowhere that only now are being used.
2:22:48 – exurban Montreal even is used at all now and there’s a new small second airport
2:22:53 – Montreal now yeah so you know that you can yeah the the perils of not planning
2:23:01 – need to be a little bit careful we need rely upon the airport master plans
2:23:07 – that have already been prepared but let’s remember as Rich and I were talking
2:23:11 – about earlier they each had their their blinders on and so as good as the
2:23:17 – They’re not looking at their neighbors much, and I think our job would be to use that as a foundation,
2:23:22 – use all those, whatever has been prepared already as the foundation and use the data in there to do the additional work that says,
2:23:29 – okay, given all of this, now what does it tell us for as, as I read you, what’s it tells on a statewide level?
2:23:37 – Because that’s the piece of work it hasn’t been done yet.
2:23:45 – State continue to get right with the FAA because that one the state has a lot more freedom on where do you even if the
2:23:51 – FAA has the money to allow us to do that to
2:23:54 – Do like master plan integration?
2:23:56 – It’s they don’t have a mechanism for doing that because they haven’t done that or as the State
2:24:01 – If they have the Money has The Freedom to Do that but the City has to have The Money to Have the Freedom, so
2:24:06 – A little bit of the chicken and egg problem again with this keeps coming up, but The Chicken and Egg here is this
2:24:13 – The FAA is not going to tell the state to do this.
2:24:17 – The state’s going have to go to the FAA and say,
2:24:20 – we think this is a really good idea.
2:24:21 – Now, in the current environment in Washington,
2:24:24 – the FA will jump up and down and be excited about that
2:24:28 – because of the prospect of using these facilities
2:24:31 – more efficiently.
2:24:32 – But somebody has to take the lead,
2:24:33 – and that really has be started with COG
2:24:36 – and moved from their state, to say we
2:24:38 – think that this really important for us.
2:24:42 – Mark me I have different views on this, but I think the FA will be very excited about the prospect of funding a
2:24:50 – Statewide integration statewide system, and I didn’t say system plan if it’s a system
2:24:56 – I
2:24:57 – Think there’ll be a lot of enthusiasm for if the state gets out there in front
2:25:09 – Yeah, yeah
2:25:11 – That’s a very specific thing we can ask to take any pleasure to do.
2:25:14 – Is it possible to have that kind of system plan while retaining the existing local ownership
2:25:21 – and planning?
2:25:22 – I wish you hadn’t asked.
2:25:25 – Yeah.
2:25:26 – What answer do you want?
2:25:30 – It’s continuum between coordination and integration.
2:25:34 – And all what lies in between there are different kind models that you can have.
2:25:40 – our job to sort of say what those differences are and what legally and
2:25:44 – regularly that means.
2:25:46 – At one extreme, the state takes over all our folks, okay?
2:25:50 – And we’ve seen that in a couple of states in the last couple months and
2:25:53 – that has been to be polite about it extraordinarily comfortable.
2:25:57 – Well, and that was done for efficiency reasons.
2:26:00 – Having nothing to do with anything, but to say you can hold the evidence for
2:26:03 – 20 million dollars up in that meeting.
2:26:05 – Exactly.
2:26:06 – So I don’t think that’s really on the table.
2:26:09 – And I think the question is what role does the state play right now with no disrespect
2:26:15 – intended to DOT, the role is role to the models.
2:26:18 – And so, and the questions is, what is the states role going forward?
2:26:22 – And maybe it is a spending $20 million, 40 million how much much do you have?
2:26:28 – Spending $40 million but it’s also using state resources and influence to force.
2:26:36 – encourage, incentivize, all the airports in the state to do what’s right.
2:26:43 – And the FAA has a lot of tools for that.
2:26:45 – They’ve been very good at telling airports what to
2:26:48 – do without telling them what do.
2:26:51 – And I think the State could use that model.
2:26:59 – What’s that?
2:27:00 – Do we have the bet as a guess?
2:27:01 – The FAA.
2:27:06 – I can’t really hear you over here, Ellie.
2:27:08 – What?
2:27:09 – I know.
2:27:10 – Do you want the microphone?
2:27:12 – No.
2:27:13 – It could really be up here.
2:27:14 – So if you don’t have a loud voice, I would use the speaker.
2:27:17 – Oh, God, okay.
2:27:18 – Could we have the FAA in as far as the government feels?
2:27:21 – I think that’s a mistake right now.
2:27:24 – Because they deal with the rules all right.
2:27:27 – Somebody’s got to change the rule.
2:27:28 – If you ask them, they’ll say, well, whatever you’re going to do is fine.
2:27:33 – We’re not going.
2:27:34 – We are not gonna fund it.
2:27:36 – help you, and we’re not going to encourage it.
2:27:38 – I think, again, this is somebody needs to take the initiative.
2:27:43 – Now, if you say to the FAA, here is the plan
2:27:45 – that the state wants to move forward with,
2:27:47 – and here’s how we are going get that.
2:27:49 – Having them react to that, I mean, can be very productive.
2:27:52 – But I say this just from experience,
2:27:55 – the FAA just has limited funds, limited people,
2:27:58 – and limited ability to sort of look outside the box.
2:28:01 – And what we were talking about is something
2:28:02 – that’s pretty far outside of the office.
2:28:06 – tell me if your experience is wrong there. I think we’re dealing with an agency that
2:28:10 – really has to stay within their authority. And we are asking them to do something they
2:28:16 – have never done before. Now, I say that at least our experience
2:28:20 – is more at the DOT than the FAA. There is real interest in thinking creatively. But that’s
2:28:28 – at highest levels. That’s not at that district or regional office.
2:28:41 – talk to us about it, but I agree it’s kind of premature, we don’t, or not there yet.
2:28:49 – Other thoughts?
2:28:56 – Anybody, anybody online?
2:29:03 – The folks we haven’t heard from today, and I also see, well actually I see Representative
2:29:10 – Zoom sort of puts up people at random and so I see Representative Dent up there and we
2:29:20 – were talking about getting suggestions about a format and kind of an outline for what you
2:29:27 – think the legislature would like to see in an annual report and I know that that’s still
2:29:32 – pending but I think we’d be very interested in seeing it.
2:29:40 – We talked about that at the last meeting, and I didn’t drop the ball. I just passed it on,
2:29:45 – but somewhere along the pathway, the ballpark dropped. And I’ve kind of started that ball
2:29:50 – rolling again this morning because I realized it had been dropped,
2:29:53 – and so I will do when I can to get those answers for you as soon as I
2:29:56 – can. But in the meantime, you’re doing good. Don’t worry about
2:30:04 – I appreciate your hard work.
2:30:05 – You guys are really engaged here.
2:30:06 – I really appreciate that.
2:30:08 – So although I have my camera off,
2:30:10 – I haven’t been listening, so paying attention.
2:30:23 – So I hadn’t heard anybody say anything bad
2:30:30 – about the idea of subcommittees.
2:30:33 – I think we have more ideas for subcommittees than we
2:30:37 – have spots for, you know, if we
2:30:41 – have an annual report subcommittee and then two others.
2:30:45 – So I’m trying to help you all out by trying
2:30:54 – to get us to decide, do we want to go ahead with
2:31:02 – What should they be?
2:31:06 – What subjects?
2:31:07 – How should we break the subjects down?
2:31:08 – Can I make a suggestion?
2:31:10 – Yeah.
2:31:11 – Just bringing maybe the theme of the committee’s up a level?
2:31:17 – Yeah, right.
2:31:18 – Annual report.
2:31:19 – Leave that one as it is.
2:31:20 – Another one could be infrastructure.
2:31:23 – And that could
2:31:25 – be airport infrastructure that
2:31:27 – could the rail infrastructure and then.
2:31:31 – people that have interest in that, right, they can generate the, you know, what’s the priority in there.
2:31:38 – Maybe we hop on the multimodal issue first and then there might be some other things that go
2:31:44 – along there and a third one could be the governance and regulatory system type and
2:31:51 – then right some of that might governance, some that may be, examples of other systems.
2:31:57 – There’s things you can do, the committee can move the agenda, if you will, of those committees.
2:32:05 – If you like, what we could do is just push at one meeting and come back to you with,
2:32:11 – let those are the three, a suggested agenda for each of the committees, you share it,
2:32:17 – and then people who have an interest,
2:32:19 – you could sort of take that as a first cut.
2:32:22 – And then if we need to rearrange them a little bit or ask people if they wouldn’t mind serving
2:32:27 – on another one, you can do that.
2:32:29 – But I think doing it today is probably just a bit premature.
2:32:33 – We can sort of make some suggestions to you and come back with some information.
2:32:38 – You can even share it before our next meeting if you would like.
2:32:48 – So we could decide amongst ourselves what we’re going to do that next couple of weeks easily. So why don’t we do
2:32:53 – that?
2:32:55 – Hey, I just, that would be great to have subcommittees. I was having a hard time hearing.
2:32:59 – I heard the proposals for infrastructure and governmental slash regulatory. What was the second?
2:33:05 – Those were the third one is, uh, annual report.
2:33:18 – Something related to the demand profile as well like a travel demand or something that effect because I think we we saw an infrastructure through supply
2:33:27 – regulatory focuses on the how but there’s kind of an upstream component of the
2:33:34 – Total passenger demand that we see in the region is that every we talked about that the the consultants won’t get some great information
2:33:42 – But is it might not that be a good thing to have?
2:33:45 – and focus on from the committee perspective.
2:33:49 – Absolutely, and one of the things you mentioned, Mark,
2:33:52 – is that we’ve got kind of budget for three subcommittees,
2:33:58 – but they don’t have to all be all the time.
2:34:00 – So one sub committee can finish their work,
2:34:03 – and then we’ll start another work.
2:34:04 – Once the annual report’s done, maybe
2:34:06 – that could morph into the demand profile or something.
2:34:09 – Why don we do a sort of a charge for all four?
2:34:13 – and we’ll come back, we will get those to you and then you guys can make a decision about
2:34:17 – what do you want to prioritize.
2:34:19 – You got to know that idea.
2:34:22 – So now that you’ve got a bad idea for four, Steve, I kind of want throw out another one.
2:34:30 – I apologize, this is sort of bureaucracy, but this annual report will go to the legislature
2:34:40 – But also when the legislature meets in January, they’ll have to allocate a new round of funding. So this group still continues to exist.
2:34:49 – But there’s no more funding after June 30th, 2027.
2:34:54 – So we might want to have a subcommittee to kind of scope out, okay, well, what are we going to do after that,
2:35:02 – so that you guys can tell us how much that’s going cost, and then we can ask for that.
2:35:09 – And just like to get into the details of how this works,
2:35:13 – it’s outside of Washtots budget.
2:35:16 – The cog is your own entity.
2:35:19 – So it won’t be me asking for this budget, it’ll be you guys.
2:35:23 – So we’re us.
2:35:24 – Is this something we should mention in our annual report?
2:35:28 – Can you present with it to us?
2:35:32 – It could be in there, yeah.
2:35:33 – At least alert them that we will need funding beyond June.
2:35:39 – We’re doing good work, we’re not done yet.
2:35:55 – Yes.
2:35:56 – This is the answer.
2:35:58 – We’ll gladly take that as a thought.
2:36:06 – might be useful to you and how best to kind of shape that up.
2:36:10 – Yeah.
2:36:12 – Okay.
2:36:16 – Representative debt.
2:36:17 – And thank you. So along with what what Anne’s comments there, you know,
2:36:23 – you now the original bill we had for this committee was about half of it was
2:36:28 – reading about the the past governor.
2:36:31 – So if we were to look for further funding, do we want to
2:36:35 – Look at, I mean, what is, and I don’t need an answer today, okay?
2:36:39 – I want you to think about if you would like to change the direction of the committee a little bit to be more.
2:36:44 – So you could be able to have more input into what the issue is here.
2:36:50 – You could look at the bill we have to go back and pull that bill up.
2:36:55 – You know, you can see what was vetoed and see if it’s something you’d like to continue with or not
2:36:59 – Just just let me know what your thoughts are because if we’re going to reach back and try to find
2:37:04 – Reach in try and get more funding if you we need to change the policy a little bit. We can work on that too, okay?
2:37:24 – their chance to go in, maybe some of the multi-move work
2:37:27 – representation of our work group and that sort of thing.
2:37:37 – I’m just going to come back to us on committee ideas.
2:37:46 – Just know that I have 146 other legislators that work with.
2:37:51 – I can’t promise anything, but we can, you know, we could ask, right?
2:37:59 – Is there anything else?
2:38:02 – I know that Rep. 5 has said the regional design was really important to him.
2:38:06 – Is that one area that’s important?
2:38:08 – Do you think you haven’t seen in the past?
2:38:10 – Do we like to see moving forward?
2:38:21 – there we go. Yeah, there is a rep file. I wrote that bill together. And you know, much of what I had put in there was taken out. If you just look, reach back and look at the bill and then, but you
2:38:36 – know I’m just trying to have an overall view of this thing that we can come up with some answers.
2:38:46 – in a big way in the state of washington so maybe you know like i said i could uh i
2:38:51 – could have my elate or i can do that i couldn’t pull up this bill uh the way it was before we uh
2:38:59 – before the governor viewed a part of it and you can have a look at it
2:39:02 – and uh but just let us know i mean i just want your opinion of where we’re going i
2:39:06 – mean you guys are really kind of in detraction doing this and and i appreciate your work as i
2:39:11 – said earlier but let me know what you think and then
2:39:14 – We can we can talk later. Okay. I mean, I’m good with that, but
2:39:25 – So I had some
2:39:27 – this kind of changing subject from the
2:39:30 – committee
2:39:32 – Structure, which I think makes sense, we should kind continue to refine that but
2:39:37 – Our discussion here was also being it’s still titled, you know the capacity gap
2:39:43 – And, you know, we’re still anticipating these, the line up into the future of travel demand.
2:40:02 – You know we are focusing on passenger, passengers per year.
2:40:11 – We are, you know, plans in the pipeline for capacity improvements that get up to a point.
2:40:19 – And then there’s the gap.
2:40:23 – I think we need to start thinking about where do we…
2:40:38 – Where do we or who do? We encourage to think about what they’re going to put in their next master plan to start filling that gap
2:40:46 – so
2:40:49 – We have the existing rounds of master plans think a lot of certain period of time our planning timeline goes a little bit beyond that and so
2:40:59 – You know
2:41:03 – Does
2:41:05 – Do so the airports we’ve mentioned already have in mind what they’re going to put in their next master plan
2:41:12 – and
2:41:13 – and then
2:41:16 – Can we get them to share that information?
2:41:19 – So that we can start thinking about that 2040 to 2050 to 2055 period now
2:41:28 – I think
2:41:30 – Pieces of the puzzle
2:41:33 – If some of those system
2:41:36 – Things move forward
2:41:38 – Some of those things might change
2:41:42 – Based on that
2:41:44 – Because of because of what you can do first versus what? You can’t do now. Yes, I
2:41:50 – Think I think
2:41:51 – The way we’re talking we have to go for we meaning cog has to do a first
2:41:55 – Cog us to say here are the existing master plans here of the problems that we’d see on a system wide basis need to be solved
2:42:03 – individual airport please look at this as you be in your next
2:42:06 – master because the blinders come off essentially we’re the only ones who
2:42:11 – really have both the authority in the direction to take those blinds off
2:42:15 – okay so so we samps a wonderful document thank you very much for Sam but Sam
2:42:21 – too we’ll be informed we hope by what called come on to the end of our
2:42:26 – existence or yes and whatever annual report we’ve done when when it comes
2:42:32 – And we shouldn’t be too arrogant about this either, because 26 years ago, if we had said
2:42:40 – what the problem was in the state of Washington with capacity, and we used the data we have
2:42:45 – from then, we would have it very wrong today.
2:42:49 – So as we look 26-years to the future in 2052, If we presume that the problems today,
2:43:01 – going to be wrong.
2:43:02 – So part of what we want to think about is what are those,
2:43:05 – what is the timings and the off ramps
2:43:08 – and flexibilities within the system
2:43:10 – that we can also respond to dynamically?
2:43:14 – But are we going be long low or are
2:43:17 – we gonna be on high?
2:43:19 – Looking 26 years back,
2:43:21 – we would have built many more runways.
2:43:26 – We would’ve put in a lot more
2:43:31 – and we would have had in a completely inadequate terminals and
2:43:35 – land side infrastructure for airports.
2:43:38 – And we were to ignore all road access.
2:43:40 – Yes.
2:43:41 – And all light rail access, those were not important.
2:43:44 – I think it’s important to keep a little bit of an eye on the future,
2:43:48 – how they, and that’s even in our scope, the airport of the
2:43:51 – future.
2:43:52 – How things are likely to change, but also how airports can respond
2:43:56 – to the dynamic changes in aviation.
2:44:00 – But part of our job is to engage in a mind-ship change so that when they prepare the next master plan, they’re thinking in system terms.
2:44:12 – And so, yeah, we’ll be wrong whatever it is we predict 30, 40 years hence.
2:44:17 – But if each of the individual airports are looking at the problem in the manner that we’re recommending,
2:44:24 – they will, as they go along through that time period, presumably do a better job.
2:44:30 – Also look at those other modes, master plans, and bring those in simultaneously so Rich
2:44:39 – and Erif can start looking at how to tweak their strategy to maximize the benefits that
2:44:48 – they’re doing as well.
2:44:50 – And they are all having their own issues.
2:44:54 – Vehicle mile travel, changing on roads, transit, ridership in many areas, collapsing.
2:44:59 – You know, what’s that?
2:45:02 – Not here.
2:45:03 – Yeah.
2:45:04 – I’m just saying this.
2:45:05 – So even those, those are moving targets as well.
2:45:07 – So we’re really corralling a bunch of moving target and that gets longer and longer.
2:45:13 – The longer you look.
2:45:16 – And so I think focused on the system as Peter says and sort of how do we put these pieces
2:45:21 – together and work together is actually more important than saying what we think it’s going
2:45:25 – to look like and what set of 10 measures are going to get us there.
2:45:33 – So as we move forward on this, I’m feeling like I really want to have, well Steve, you
2:45:41 – and I have talked about the vision of the do-nothing scenario and it’s maybe this is
2:45:50 – my own personal shortcoming but it is not super helpful to me to
2:45:58 – I want to have like, okay, what does that look like to a real person?
2:46:02 – And one of the things that concerns me is of
2:46:06 – the appointees to the work group, several of
2:46:11 – the positions that haven’t been appointed are the economic development representative
2:46:16 – kind of people.
2:46:18 – Right, and so I would really like
2:46:27 – like Ben mentioned demand, what does that mean really like if the cruise
2:46:35 – industry can’t get their passengers into SCA,
2:46:40 – what do that means to them or to the professional sports industry in Seattle?
2:46:45 – Like I would like to hear from some of the other
2:46:56 – if there’s constraints to air travel and I think that would help tell the story.
2:47:02 – So I don’t know if that’s, you know, something that we put in the next request,
2:47:08 – the legislature fund to study or if it’s part of you guys’ work plan in
2:47:12 – the six months, but I just want to throw that out there,
2:47:14 – that those are some other pieces that I would like to see.
2:47:24 – Yakima Valley ships, I don’t know how many millions of pounds of cherries out of C-TAC every year.
2:47:31 – If they can’t do that, what’s the impact to them?
2:47:35 – I think the Washington State Fruit Tree Commission, which is basically Yakma, could probably help.
2:47:42 – They’re not on our current list of attendees, but I
2:47:47 – think they might have something to say about this, because they ship.
2:47:52 – And they all come over I-90 and said they only own trucks.
2:47:56 – I don’t know how many millions of pounds it’s in the newspaper every year, but
2:48:00 – right, Alan, you might know more about that than I do,
2:48:03 – but it is a big deal.
2:48:04 – They come up with the mountains on trucks and then they get on airplanes.
2:48:06 – They do.
2:48:07 – At CTA.
2:48:08 – And their ship to Asia and Korea, Japan, and China.
2:48:12 – You did the work that you donít have.
2:48:15 – So one company that was on the airfield that wasn’t willing to do that work
2:48:22 – I agree with what Steve said we don’t have a freight component here we need a
2:48:25 – freight forwarder to talk about what it would take to bring a team over to
2:48:31 – Grant County for six weeks out of the year and then what does Grant county need
2:48:36 – to build to house that type of facility to make that happen because we were
2:48:40 – bringing cherries from north of us down to the airport and flying into Asia and
2:48:46 – we could very easily do the same thing for for a flight coming soon.
2:48:51 – because they don’t have airports where they can ship out of.
2:48:54 – In the case of Yakima, there’s troop packing right there in town,
2:48:58 – and there is an airport.
2:48:59 – So it would be relatively easy to do, you know.
2:49:04 – Well, that is something that the Yakimaw needs to live there.
2:49:06 – Master plan, because talking to the freight forwarders,
2:49:09 – the runway has to be 12,000 feet long and 150 feet wide,
2:49:13 – if they’re going to use that.
2:49:14 – Yeah.
2:49:15 – And that’s not Yakimo yet.
2:49:20 – Next at City X
2:49:24 – Who was a local shipper or economic interests that we can have come and speak to the group and get that anecdotal?
2:49:32 – Information it’s pretty easy to value. I mean delays and congestion or
2:49:37 – Longer halls or lack of reliability is something we could put a number to so on I’m not really worried about that
2:49:44 – Yep
2:49:50 – Like if we were to put it in a committee, is it all the way around?
2:49:54 – I think it’s fine multimodal because you have to get it to the airport and passengers and freight can kind of be valued similarly in terms of the effect on delays and congestion.
2:50:17 – Sherry’s in a farmer’s market in Taichung last week
2:50:40 – Could be in the infrastructure piece because it takes info infrastructure to produce it
2:51:02 – research about a freight forwarder that we might invite or some of these people
2:51:10 – that ship fruit and all that kind of stuff if you if he wants to do that don’t
2:51:15 – you think Alan you could probably come up there’s people that are in town we
2:51:18 – can contact the first thing that comes to me to my mind is worship state fruit
2:51:24 – tree commission but there is probably others
2:51:32 – Would the Commerce Department have folks they would recommend
2:51:54 – Freight group all geez
2:51:58 – Had to have been seven years ago now
2:52:01 – And they’re freight forwarders that were part of that group.
2:52:06 – I don’t see if I was one of them, and there are a few others, might be worth pulling.
2:52:11 – Raise our number if you told us we were on the tour and it’s like, but
2:52:15 – why was it that they ceased operating the Treeford operation at your airport?
2:52:20 – It was, I mean ultimately the company that was doing that closed.
2:52:29 – It was off to a great start, but the economic friction between China and the US had a
2:52:40 – great deal to do with it, and then also there were some weather issues, both here and in
2:52:46 – California because they were a direct competition because getting the cherries, getting
2:52:51 – the best-looking cheries there first is the name of the game.
2:52:57 – There is branding I think this is having the tree fruit commission being there is that there there. Is
2:53:03 – You know a Washington state cherry does mean something to those markets in in Asia
2:53:09 – I mean, there’s a little cache there, so
2:53:12 – You, know that is to our advantage
2:53:14 – To be able to say hey, this isn’t washing the chair and then the other question that I could bring them here is
2:53:19 – Are there you know, it’s got to be a high high dollar
2:53:24 – Perishable piece of fruit so
2:53:26 – You know, cherries are something that clearly work now.
2:53:30 – And we’re talking about the future is what is the next piece of fruit that’s going to
2:53:37 – be worth their while to ship it by air.
2:53:41 – Is it going be apricots?
2:53:42 – Is there going blueberries?
2:53:43 – Is going something else?
2:53:45 – I’d be curious to hear what the growers think is going
2:53:50 – to be a high value crop going forward.
2:53:54 – You know, if we get an idea of what that is and then what kind of volumes, then you add that to the cherries and now we have another problem slash opportunity to solve.
2:54:06 – He was talking about I-90 and needing to get that built for wine exports, likewise, that depending on how those could get either to CTAC.
2:54:18 – I don’t think they’re going on a cargo ship.
2:54:22 – and that was far more perishable than I think the average person would have thought as well.
2:54:27 – That was our advantage.
2:54:29 – The piece of fruit would stay refrigerated except for literally half a minute between the truck and the dock
2:54:37 – and about two minutes between a dock and an airplane.
2:54:41 – Whereas in some places it will sit, it’ll sit outside for a little bit and then every minute counts.
2:54:49 – in the case of some of these troops, like apples and pears,
2:54:52 – even sent them by boat because they’re not as perishable.
2:54:55 – But in case the cherries, it’s just a matter of four days,
2:54:59 – and they’ve gone if they are not.
2:55:01 – Thank you, Gary, that’s what I was wondering.
2:55:03 – So the second largest wine producing state is Washington.
2:55:08 – So does wine get shipped by air?
2:55:13 – Is that another one of the big industries?
2:55:15 – It’s heavy.
2:55:18 – I doubt it, but I don’t know.
2:55:19 – So that goes in first, too?
2:55:21 – It was.
2:55:22 – Why?
2:55:23 – Refur containers about time.
2:55:24 – The conversations are reasonable.
2:55:25 – So I didn’t want to call,
2:55:26 – but it wasn’t cargo ship.
2:55:31 – It wasn?
2:55:32 – No, because they were talking time sensitive
2:55:35 – and two weeks to go across the Pacific
2:55:38 – is not time-sensitive,
2:55:39 – and you’ve got to have your wine.
2:55:41 – It’s just because it was the timing to get from
2:55:47 – eastern Washington to the ports, whether that was all where that
2:55:53 – was CTAC, where the that votes, but it was time sensitive to get to Seattle and
2:56:00 – off to The Pacific Room was the issue.
2:56:17 – egg industry representation it’s compared to just freight or freight
2:56:23 – forward seafood make you make a really good point
2:56:29 – fresh perishable high-value grown in Washington or harvest in
2:56:35 – Washington so hopefully we can get I’m looking it I am looking at Steve
2:56:46 – Yeah, as far as getting industry representative, do you happen to know if any of the pending nominations with the governor’s office are from industry rep people?
2:57:22 – Trucking industry and freight forwarding industry, those are both the voting positions.
2:57:27 – I don’t know if we have any nominees or not,
2:57:32 – but there’s nothing specific on here about agriculture.
2:57:51 – to be contacted well, and then I know Parkdale has a section of transportation, so they might be in that console.
2:58:05 – You know, there’s nothing that prevents us from having those people come and speak to us anyway,
2:58:10 – whether they’re a member of our group or not.
2:58:13 – Yeah, sure.
2:58:15 – So we could do that and we can invite somebody for you.
2:58:20 – fruit tree industry or something or whatever we want to come and talk to us about it.
2:58:24 – How do they get those cherries over there now? How many?
2:58:28 – That kind of stuff.
2:58:32 – Are they currently experiencing challenges?
2:58:36 – Yes.
2:58:40 – So who has the action on that?
2:58:50 – through poor coalition and organic regenerative agriculture, so.
2:58:57 – It would be good to have a wrap that represents shippers, generally,
2:59:03 – because like tech, for instance, is a far bigger user of air cargo than agriculture.
2:59:09 – Agriculture is usually, you know, high weight, low value.
2:59:18 – Ercargo is generally lightweight high value and so we you know I think we need sort of
2:59:25 – representatives of you
2:59:27 – know all of it. I
2:59:29 – think it will be more natural in maybe two meetings from now when we get to the capacity
2:59:35 – then what do you do about it and what are sort
2:59:38 – of the constraints and then you have those folks who can speak to what they need so under
2:59:47 – So, I think we have a little time, but I
2:59:50 – think getting a rep on it would be pretty important.
2:59:52 – So Steve Polinsky offered, so I’m just going to invite you guys to talk about all these
3:00:01 – different industries.
3:00:04 – Many years ago, when I was in the state of Oregon, turns out one of the big air freight
3:00:15 – things, because the same thing, high value, low weight.
3:00:19 – And so I don’t know if we’ve got that kind of manufacturing.
3:00:23 – Intuitively, there’s, I was just in Taiwan.
3:00:27 – There’s four nonstop flights a day on four different carriers
3:00:30 – between, or three different, carriers between
3:00:33 – SEA and Taipei.
3:00:36 – And intuition tells me it’s semiconductors coming one way,
3:00:40 – and cherries going the other way. And the passengers are basically
3:01:00 – on dates, times, places for the next one.
3:01:04 – That’s, yeah, we haven’t done that yet.
3:01:08 – Yeah.
3:01:10 – I’m sorry, are we doing change today or?
3:01:12 – No, no, well we’re taking the committee.
3:01:15 – We’re going to come back to the work group
3:01:17 – with a structure of potential committees and then.
3:01:20 – Next couple of weeks we’ll get to it.
3:01:22 – The workgroup will pick.
3:01:30 – Ben, you might be able to have some input. I don’t know how much you can share from the airline, but
3:01:36 – you know, when you all are doing route planning and looking at the cargo aspect of it,
3:01:42 – that might have to be too trade secret for us,
3:01:46 – but I mean, cargo has a much larger impact on the international side, generally speaking,
3:01:59 – Obviously, with our State of Alaska operation, that’s critical to the lifeblood of the communities
3:02:05 – there as well as in the State Of Hawaii, so it varies kind of by market.
3:02:10 – I would say, you know, the majority of volume that we tend to carry is things like, y’know,
3:02:15 – mail, fish, essential goods to The State OF Alaska, to and from the state of
3:02:17 – Alaska aswell as, ya know packages, e-commerce, things of that nature.
3:02:22 – I was actually just texting with Anna a moment ago, one potential agenda item for the next
3:02:28 – Working group are vice president of planning and revenue management. I would be willing to come and
3:02:35 – Talk in more detail about that.
3:02:37 – I’ve done it in the past that she’s kind of the current
3:02:40 – Head of The Division she oversees both, you know, the revenue manager side of pricing as well as
3:02:45 – Network planning which we encompass all the route forecasting
3:02:49 – How do we think about cargo revenue the things of that nature if that would beat of interest?
3:02:53 – We can get that on the calendar
3:02:57 – Yeah
3:03:17 – We still have 45 minutes I have asked all the questions that I had for the moment
3:03:26 – Okay.
3:03:27 – Um, sort of, yeah, actually when we saw here, I do have,
3:03:35 – I did put some next dates and some considerations for the next couple meetings.
3:03:40 – We can talk about that.
3:03:45 – Yeah,
3:03:49 – I can share what I put on here that would be ideal for
3:03:57 – You guys are the boss
3:04:02 – Yeah, I was big I had another place where I thought I’d some questions written down and I don’t okay, so
3:04:08 – What do you have in mind
3:04:15 – So a couple things I know
3:04:17 – Next meeting doesn’t have to be all virtual, but I no
3:04:20 – Sometimes in the think of summer you guys might have did an all-virtual one last time
3:04:26 – But thinking right this one got pushed a little bit because of some holiday
3:04:32 – Invocations or a bit later, but these these would be the next two meetings for out of these four so we pick
3:04:43 – You know either the August week of August 17th or the august 31st
3:04:56 – Or are we doing it on the 19th?
3:05:00 – So these were just options like that, you know, in looking at our calendars of what my work
3:05:09 – and then the fifth or the week of the 5th or 12.
3:05:14 – If we’re going to have people come, I would rather that be an in person meeting.
3:05:19 – I think a virtual is okay for sort of getting everybody up to date,
3:05:25 – fruits of our research or whatever but even just organizing the committees you know here’s the plan on the
3:05:31 – committees and then that makes sense as a virtual meeting but could be a little bit we’re going to
3:05:35 – have the fruit people or elasco or semiconductor or whomever I’d prefer to be able to sit around
3:06:03 – That’s consideration I think doesn’t have to be,
3:06:08 – but I can give you a good point about presenters,
3:06:10 – but also we’re talking about location too.
3:06:21 – You can’t do that week of September 7th.
3:06:25 – Mark, like September 9th somewhere around there.
3:06:27 – I could, it’s Labor Day week.
3:06:30 – So it tends to be I mean I could do it but the ninth is bad for me, but this second works September 2nd
3:06:44 – The reports do at the end of the year but
3:06:47 – The report don’t don t worry about the report we’re not worried about it
3:06:51 – We have plenty of material. We’ll get you a draft you guys can look at it that
3:06:55 – We don’ t have to
3:06:58 – Not worried about that. I mean you just staff it through the washtop process though like we did last year
3:07:05 – No, because we’re already too late for that
3:07:10 – Last year’s report was a bit thin toe. Yes, that was yeah court. That was partly driven by
3:07:18 – Needing to meet the deadline and also by guests, you know our capacity. Well, how about September 2nd? Yeah
3:07:26 – And where would you guys want to do it?
3:07:34 – And virtue
3:07:37 – If it’s gonna be that’s going to be the virtual one though, so I guess the where is not right mark
3:07:42 – Yeah, the word doesn’t matter
3:07:45 – For the for the if the next one we’re going do virtual maybe a little bit more of a condensed agenda time
3:07:53 – You focus on here
3:07:57 – Or is that part of the question?
3:07:59 – Third.
3:08:00 – Third, Lawrence.
3:08:07 – OK.
3:08:08 – And then we can squeeze in a month later is not bad.
3:08:15 – Yeah.
3:08:15 – Because it’s a virtual.
3:08:16 – That’d be fine, yeah.
3:08:17 – Yeah, oh yeah, I actually have a hold on my calendar already
3:08:22 – for September 2nd.
3:08:24 – So.
3:08:25 – Well, they were saying the third would be better for is that all right?
3:08:35 – I could do the 3rd okay, and it’s virtual. It’s a little easier if you got other things on your calendar, right
3:08:41 – And I don’t think we would do a 10 to 4 slot either right
3:08:44 – I would I dunno how long the last one virtual one was but what we do that
3:08:48 – I mean we had a very abbreviated virtual want to say considered an annual report and adopted I think
3:08:54 – There are some rules around, you don’t have to have public comment if you only have an extremely limited agenda, and so we stuck within that rule, but this is a kind of more general meeting where we would have a scheduled public
3:09:11 – comment.
3:09:12 – And that’s fine.
3:09:13 – Yeah.
3:09:14 – The public doesn’t seem to be clamoring.
3:09:22 – So the week of October 5th through the 12th.
3:09:25 – That week or the 5st will work for me.
3:09:27 – Week of the fifth doesn’t work to you.
3:09:28 – Okay, how about the twelfth then?
3:09:30 – We’re not great.
3:09:33 – We actually have the Washington Transportation Commission
3:09:36 – in Yakima on the 14th and 15th unless we wanted to try
3:09:41 – to figure out a way to get on their agenda.
3:09:44 – We could be talking about how Yakama and other eastern airports
3:09:48 – are going to be supporting the west side.
3:09:51 – might be able to sneak that in, off the top of the fall of Hammond and see if we can get that on the agenda.
3:09:58 – That’s what day is that?
3:10:00 – It might have been a big agenda for us.
3:10:02 – 14th and 15th.
3:10:04 – 14, 15, 10.
3:10:06 – Well, we could split.
3:10:08 – I think we’re going to have a lot of agenda items at that October meeting.
3:10:12 – I’m not sure that.
3:10:13 – But we also could have our meeting adjacent and then if
3:10:20 – go do that as well. I mean day before day I wouldn’t even have that. Okay.
3:10:29 – Thank you. Could we do the 13th? I could recognize in 12th this Columbus day and
3:10:36 – holiday the day. Before 13 and 14th is a major Washington State Airport’s conference.
3:10:43 – Okay so then that’s out. Where?
3:10:50 – 15 for that. Is there something on that?
3:10:54 – The week of October 5th.
3:10:56 – 6.
3:10:58 – Oh, it’s October.
3:11:01 – October?
3:11:02 – I’m beyond time.
3:11:03 – October here.
3:11:04 – 56.
3:11:05 – You can do it.
3:11:07 – Even virtual.
3:11:09 – You couldn’t dial in.
3:11:11 – All right.
3:11:12 – Well, why don’t we say?
3:11:14 – How about the night?
3:11:15 – He can’t do virtual on the 9th?
3:11:17 – I can.
3:11:21 – No, I’m right Evan can’t
3:11:27 – Six seventh or eight six is okay
3:11:34 – Anybody online have any
3:11:37 – Put on meeting dates, that’s all right. Yeah
3:11:44 – Six or seventh yeah, yeah okay
3:11:49 – 6-7, 6 or 7?
3:11:50 – Yeah, no.
3:11:51 – Good for me.
3:11:52 – OK.
3:11:53 – And then where?
3:11:54 – 13th, that would have been bad for my.
3:11:56 – Think about it.
3:11:56 – Come on, it’s perfect.
3:11:57 – OK, let’s see.
3:11:59 – 7 would be better.
3:12:01 – Yeah.
3:12:01 – I, six or seven.
3:12:02 – What are you saying?
3:12:03 – 7 wouldn’t be that better?
3:12:05 – What’s that?
3:12:05 – Let’s say the seventh.
3:12:06 – Seventh?
3:12:08 – And sorry, we had picked.
3:12:10 – Painfield?
3:12:11 – What?
3:12:12 – We’re going to find a location.
3:12:13 – Pain Field?
3:12:14 – We’ve been there before.
3:12:16 – I think it worked.
3:12:17 – Conveer Rome was good in the OT the pain field
3:12:28 – Could be potentially at that meeting or the next one Peter can’t make it though, and Peter’s pain feel. Oh, yeah
3:12:38 – Yeah
3:12:41 – How about spoken or base and Yak mom mean we could do another one at Yakma if you want on the seventh
3:12:47 – We had to have that East-West pattern going, and we haven’t even spoken.
3:12:54 – That’s kind of like a fail if we don’t go to Spokane.
3:12:58 – Do we have a vendor?
3:13:01 – Spokane came and spoke to us in those just like with me.
3:13:06 – Do they go back to the well? They host us there.
3:13:15 – Okay, so virtual on September 2nd in Spokane on October 7th.
3:13:31 – Yeah, I had the third.
3:13:32 – Did we go back to the second?
3:13:33 – Oh, no, sorry.
3:13:34 – My bad.
3:13:35 – Third.
3:13:36 – Okay.
3:13:37 – So September 3rd.
3:13:38 – For the virtual.
3:13:39 – Will be virtual?
3:13:41 – It won’t be a six hour meeting we’ll have to see how the agenda and try to estimate sometimes but definitely something shorter
3:13:48 – And then we kind of go to our what our standard agenda would be for this
3:13:54 – October 7
3:14:00 – Yep now if the mariners are the playoffs, you know
3:14:07 – You’re going to take a train from Spokane to…
3:14:09 – No, they went 0 for 3 in games.
3:14:11 – They went to last fall, so maybe I should just be as far away as possible.
3:14:14 – There you go.
3:14:15 – Now you can just rise seaport over from Felts and just go in and come right back.
3:14:28 – Sure.
3:14:29 – Are you going take the lead with trying to see if they’re available
3:14:32 – and what the best spot location would be?
3:14:39 – October 7th, yep.
3:14:45 – I just hope 10 o’clock, probably 10 O’Clock.
3:14:47 – I think it would be more standard agenda yet to attend the floor.
3:14:53 – More like 10 to 1 probably.
3:14:55 – On the third.
3:14:56 – Oh, on the 3rd.
3:14:58 – Yeah, I’d probably attend to one or
3:15:01 – I’ll probably be, could just a couple hours be enough.
3:15:03 – Yeah.
3:15:03 – Yeah and we’ll, we got.
3:15:06 – Hopefully you get checked whether we can do public comment or
3:15:09 – Yeah, that would be nice
3:15:17 – We’ll share that before the third yep, so then with the expectation that we’ll come out of that
3:15:25 – With yeah, it’s assigned to committees and an agenda to move forward
3:15:38 – you want to finalize probably the annual report.
3:15:43 – So I think the committees in the Annual Report
3:15:45 – discussion on the third, maybe we’ll even have a draft.
3:15:50 – Well, for them to react to, at least initially,
3:15:53 – for either.
3:15:53 – You tell me when I get it, and then I’ll
3:15:54 – tell you if I can do it by the jury.
3:15:57 – Yeah, well, right, we need the template and the outlines.
3:16:01 – So you draft so that we could pull them in.
3:16:03 – Yeah.
3:16:04 – Oh, you’ll get.
3:16:04 – You’ll go.
3:16:05 – Don’t worry.
3:16:07 – to Gary’s point I think having that in final draft form for October 7th and
3:16:12 – getting the workgroup to agree to that coming out of that meeting I
3:16:16 – think would be part of the agenda.
3:16:33 – Just because the seaport alliance is at, you know, a collaboration of different.
3:16:37 – Yeah.
3:16:38 – So that’s the two ports and then also the, uh, the port is the out of order to go by and
3:16:44 – then other.
3:16:45 – Yeah, we do have the ports representing.
3:16:48 – That’s Buck Taff.
3:16:50 – Is he, Buck?
3:16:51 – Are you still on?
3:16:53 – He was on early.
3:16:55 – He’s still there.
3:16:56 – Yeah?
3:16:57 – Don’t you represent the Ports?
3:17:00 – I do.
3:17:02 – So
3:17:07 – The c4 alliance
3:17:21 – Okay, well
3:17:26 – If we’re done a bit early Brandon are we able to roll into the tour or
3:17:33 – So
3:17:41 – Is there anything else
3:17:44 – Anything else anybody else wants to add while we’re still on the record for today
3:17:51 – Thoughts questions
3:18:00 – We could have a meeting in Vancouver, Washington.
3:18:03 – That’s true.
3:18:04 – We couldn’t be in the state of Washington,
3:18:06 – and then we could go across,
3:18:08 – or just not during rush hour.
3:18:10 – Yeah.
3:18:11 – That would be a good winter meeting location,
3:18:13 – because the eastern folks could
3:18:16 – go south and not have to cross the pass.
3:18:18 – Yep.
3:18:19 – I didn’t hear the location.
3:18:20 – Portland.
3:18:21 – Vancouver Washington but then do a Portland airport tour.
3:18:24 – Okay.
3:18:25 – If you haven’t been in a new terminal there,
3:18:27 – it’s fantastic.
3:18:30 – I do. Also there the Vancouver, Washington airport will have a brand new conference room that I don’t know if it will be big enough for us but that might be available to us and that’s kind of a cool small airport.
3:18:59 – you can take one of the six Amtrak Cascades trains to Vancouver on a round trip, so it’s pretty convenient, and I’ll have to drive A5.
3:19:12 – I took the train here today, taking the training back tonight.
3:19:16 – And I was just, I just heard a presentation on PDX 2045, right,
3:19:20 – so I’m sure between a tour we could also.
3:19:24 – As it relates to that, they would be very happy to talk to this group as well.
3:19:31 – So, if that’s something we want to make.
3:19:33 – Good idea.
3:19:34 – You’re a great idea, Alec.
3:19:36 – Yeah.
3:19:37 – All right.
3:19:38 – Anybody else online?
3:19:39 – Have any input?
3:19:41 – If you go to Portland too, then you could probably give us some information about what Alaska’s doing down there.
3:19:54 – That might that might be the time to have his
3:19:59 – Rob
3:20:01 – His person address the group yeah, and maybe that December meeting would be that time
3:20:05 – To have your planning and route management person speak
3:20:13 – Team to make sure she’s on the calendar, okay, we don’t have that date yet, but maybe we’ll
3:20:22 – eights and times for the future meetings. September 3rd virtual October 7th Spokane
3:20:33 – number of question mark pending Spokane’s affirmation yes
3:20:40 – okay do we want to talk about December sure
3:20:48 – I know we met in December, well, we weren’t on board yet, but earlier the better.
3:20:54 – It’s December 9th.
3:20:59 – Seconder of the night.
3:21:01 – Second.
3:21:02 – You can do the second.
3:21:04 – Yeah.
3:21:05 – I can’t do it.
3:21:06 – How about the 2nd?
3:21:08 – I’d prefer that.
3:21:10 – Second?
3:21:11 – Yeah?
3:21:12 – Yeah, all right.
3:21:17 – See about meeting a Vancouver, Washington, who has a relationship for me, okay?
3:21:25 – And coordinate
3:21:30 – Christina, were you gonna send out holders or placeholders for all of
3:21:37 – Yep December 2nd October 7th and December second I think would be normal 10 to 4 p.m. And then
3:21:45 – September 3rd, I think, Block 10 or 1 should be planning for anything.
3:21:52 – I get the gun to be.
3:21:54 – Yeah.
3:21:55 – I’m doing that to her.
3:21:58 – Anything for her?
3:22:00 – All right.
3:22:02 – Now, anything else?
3:22:04 – Okay, hearing nothing?
3:22:06 – All, right, let’s adjourn and move on to our airport tour.
3:22:10 – That’s awesome.
3:22:11 – Thank you all.
3:22:12 – Appreciate it.